Jeff Ma
Hey folks, we have some exciting news for you all. We have just launched a brand new company founded on the tenets of our love as a business strategy philosophy, the same philosophy that you've grown to know and love. This new venture is called Culture Plus. Culture Plus is a culture as a service company that provides training experiences, consulting services, and digital tools to help companies achieve high performing and high reliability cultures and teams. To learn more, visit culture-plus.com. That's culture-plus.com. And now, let's get to the show. Johanna Pagonis is the founder and owner of Sinogap Solutions. She's a podcaster, an author, a consultant, entrepreneur. And she joins us today to help break open an important topic which is women in the workplace and women in leadership. It's no secret that most industries are male dominated and women face a number of challenges in the workplace that Johanna has set out to help people understand and fix. This is an important conversation. And I hope you find it impactful.

Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I'm joined today by my co host and co author Chris Pitre. Hey, Chris, what's going on?

Chris Pitre
Hey, Jeff, how are you?

Jeff Ma
Good, good, good. And each episode, we dive into one element of business and strategy. And we test our theory of love against it. Today's guest is Johanna Pagonis. Johanna is an international speaker and author of the book - Choose to be a leader others would want to follow. And one thing that instantly connected me to her is that she says we spend most of our lives at work, so why can't we actually enjoy and find fulfillment in what we do, which is practically our mantra here at Love as a Business Strategy, and our mission. So instant connection there. But she's also the founder and owner of Sinogap Solutions. And she also hosts the Tackle Tuesday podcast, which is a weekly podcast series that tackles different issues in the workplace. So welcome to the show. Johanna, how are you?

Johanna Pagonis
Thank you for having me. Great, Jeff. Thank you so much. Hi, Chris.

Chris Pitre
Hi. Nice to meet you.

Jeff Ma
You too. So Johanna, we do a quick icebreaker here, which I always make my co hosts go first that you have time to think about your answer. So Chris, today's icebreaker is, as a child, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Chris Pitre
So several things. So the first thing was an anesthesiologist. And this is where I learned the importance of not copying someone else, cuz this is what a friend by the name Catherine, she wants to be an anesthesiologist. I want to be one too. And then it grew from that to being a veterinarian. And then from that to being a lawyer, and then from that to a lot of other things, but an anesthesiologist was the first career choice that I had as a kid.

Jeff Ma
Wow. Amazing. Johanna as a child, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Johanna Pagonis
I wanted to be an actress. That was my goal. But when you have weak parents, that doesn't ever turn to reality, so unless you're Jennifer Aniston

Jeff Ma
Yeah, who's your like, inspiration as a child, remember, like, who did you see on screen that kind of did that for you?

Johanna Pagonis
God, you know, it's interesting, like so I wanted to I saw myself being on Broadway because I love to sing too. And so I was really drawn to Madonna, because her shows were like theatrical performances. So I envisioned myself doing that as well. But in terms of acting, I guess you know, at that time when I was growing up Meryl Streep Glenn Close and then generally not Jennifer Aniston. Oh my god. She did. Why does she did pretty lady Why does her name is Julia Roberts. Yes. Yeah, you know, but I think really? I love Meryl Streep. And Jane Fonda like, Oh, they're just I could watch them all day.

Chris Pitre
Meryl Streep is like, greatest of all time, for sure.

Johanna Pagonis
She really transforms herself like Julia Roberts I enjoy, but I can kind of see Julia Roberts, like her persona and archetype in every film. Whereas Meryl Streep really does transform. It's incredible.

Chris Pitre
I still think the Iron Lady is like one of the most like, seem really like Margaret Thatcher is all I saw. I never saw Meryl Streep at all.

In that performance.

Johanna Pagonis
Totally, or the Devil Wears Prada.

Chris Pitre
Now that's still my favorite. That's my favorite performance. But I was I was the weird one who saw her as the good guy and everybody else was like, she was so clear with what she was a how is this so hard? There was a like, I was like, I would love to work for her. I'm the weird person, of course. And like she was super clear on what she wanted and expected and never wavered from it.

She was consistent, that's for sure.

But yeah, I thought that I thought the the villain that movie was actually the boyfriend who was like, anti career in this relationship.

Jeff Ma
Tune in tune in next week when we do an episode on the entire breakdown analysis of the Devil Wears Prada. Look for for that episode. But until then, Jahanna, can you kick us off high level here, because I just want you to, like, talk a little bit about yourself and what you do, why you do it and talk about your passion.

Johanna Pagonis
So when I decided to not become an actress, because my parents were not supportive, I thought, Okay, well, what do I want to do? And you know, it was quite the journey, like I actually got kicked out of university, because I was like, I don't know what I want to do. I'm only here because my dad made me. You know, it's either that or, you know, so I was like, I don't know what I want to do. And so I did a lot of soul searching, I saw a lot of career counselors, and I decided, ultimately, I wanted to make people feel good. I think that's what I wanted to get into acting because people go to the movies when they're feeling a certain kind of way and want to feel better about themselves or feel different, right? And so I thought, well, how can I harness that passion that I have, and I thought, well go into the field of psychology. And initially, I thought I was going to become a marriage family counselor, and actually pursued that path. And I was doing my masters and learning how to become a group therapist, because I intrinsically understand and believe that the systems we live in, grow in and work in play in really influenced who we are as individuals. And so you can't really work with a child or an individual without considering the system that they function and live within. So I wanted to work with system. So I always looked at holistic approaches to helping people be fully functioning human beings, and so did anti bullying and looked at a whole school system approach. I did anger management, working with families, kids, we've been mandated to the court. But then, over time, I realized, you know, I had moved to a new city, and I was working for nonprofits. And their income is unreliable when you're working in a nonprofit industry. Because you know, you get paid based on the contracts and the funding they get, and your positions never really confirmed and, and I was in a new city, I was living all by myself. And I didn't feel that stability that I wanted. So I ended up looking in the corporate world and thought maybe I had some transferable skills that could bring me there, I ended up in corporate learning and development. So the skills that I used to develop programs for families and children were the same skills that were required to design employee development programs and leadership development programs. And what I decided where I discovered was an organization is just another system. And we play if you look at a family system and an organizational system, can you see some of the alignments between the two, right? You know, the parents could potentially be the executives, right. And then you have the children could potentially be the employees, right? There's, you know, the parents set the cultural norms, the expectations that are the ones that instill the values in their children and try to hold their children as best as they can accountable. Parents have to hold themselves accountable when they make mistakes, because parents make mistakes. And I thought, this is just another system. And if I can understand the system and how the system could be structured or designed to better support individuals, I'm, I'm probably going to find a little a lot of fulfillment in this in this job field, right. And so I said, I was going to go back and do my master's in like focus really on industrial psychology. So not really focused on becoming a psychologist in a clinical setting for an individual or family but becoming a psychologist for at an organizational level. And I started to do that I loved it so much, I decided I want to do this all day long. I don't want to do this as part of another company for another organization. I want to work with all industries. And so I ended up leaving my very secure employment to launch my own business right before the pandemic so I could do this full time. And isn't that funny? I left uncertainty and lack of stability to get a stable job. But then after a decade of doing that, I realized, nope, I'd rather go back into uncertainty and unpredictability because this is where my heart lies. So now I do this for my myself and work with clients in all industries, small, medium, large, complex, tech, finance, government, you know, it's wonderful and so I just learned so much from my clients as well because I have to learn use their new system every time I get a new client so I just work with them, and help them achieve their mission by maximizing the human potential across their workforce by looking at not only theories around management, but theories specific to human performance, psychology, intrinsic motivation, emotional intelligence, really leadership at the end of the day. So try to equip leaders with the skills they need to lead through the heart. And I think that's why I was so drawn to you, Jeff too and Mohammad, when I met you, and you got you were on my podcast, because when I heard the Love as a Business Strategy, I was like, Oh, this is like music to my ears. You know, these are my soulmates here, I have to meet with them and talk with them, because our philosophies are very much aligned.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. I know. We had a couple conversations after your podcast about coming on this show, because we had so much alignment, so much great conversation. And I think we also talked about specifically what could this episode kind of center around and I know that one thing you mentioned that you have a passion for and a space that you're becoming more and more involved is women in the workplace, and specifically women leadership? Can you tell us a little bit about that direction? And what it is you're trying to do in that space?

Johanna Pagonis
Great question. I worked. When I joined the corporate training and development world, I always worked in a male dominated industry, except for my most recent experience, where I went over to the Ministry of Education, but typically, I was in law enforcement or in the safety, public safety realm. And, I mean, it's a male dominated industry. And so when I launched my business, I thought, well, you know, I still want to pursue this passion of helping people. Where are the gaps that exists around leadership, and leadership gender gap is one of the biggest ones. And I realized, through some of the research among experiences, that if we can create more equity and diversity, especially by limiting the leadership gender gap, we have the potential of increasing our, our successes, as a society, as businesses as well, where we get different perspectives that we did not necessarily consider because the leadership is made up of a homogenous group of people. And so you need that diversity. So that you can, you know, make products and services that are representative of the people you serve. And so women play an important role in that process. And reflect on my own experiences. I was like, it was tricky, because the only people I had as role models were men. And they led different ways than I led. And I could find some inspirational leaders through the men that I worked with. But there was also many of them that I was like, Well, what this is, doesn't feel natural to me to lead in this way. And I call it the ick factor. You know, if somebody is telling you're encouraging you to do something that they would do, and it makes you makes your skin crawl, like you shouldn't do it, you know, and so, watching other leaders, their their process and approaches, I had the ick factor, and I was like, Well, how do I move up in this organization, where I may be the only one in a room, you know, it wasn't uncommon for me to and I'm short, on five foot two, I'm a civilian working in a male dominated law enforcement industry, where most of the men wear their uniforms and have their firearms. And so I needed to make, I had to position myself in that room with like, people that were probably double my size, you know, and position myself as a strong, capable and confident so I can get that credibility, it took time to learn that. But I thought through those experiences, wouldn't it be great to bring other women together? Because I'm sure they have other experiences, similar and different to mine? What if we created a learning space for people to come together and learn from one another, so to try and eliminate the leadership gender gap, and that's how I started to get into that space and focus a little bit more on that, because I really want to be a true advocate for women.

Chris Pitre
Awesome. And so when it comes to your experience, and especially, you know, starting those conversations with so many women share some of what you were hearing what what were those initial conversations like, like what stories were similar, if not different than yours, like, because I'm sure it was a wide gamut.

Johanna Pagonis
Mm hmm. So some of them are, I remember, it's a, it's a heartfelt and a bit of a painful one. And more than one woman has shared this story with me. And you know, when you look at those entry level positions of leadership positions, it tends to be women younger, in age, right? I'm pushing 50. So based on my career trajectory, I wouldn't be entering into those entry level leadership positions. So women typically are in their childbearing years, right when get into this frontline supervisor, maybe that frontline manager position, and are thinking about having are starting families or growing their family. And one woman has shared her story with me how she was trying to get pregnant, was successful and then experienced the miscarriage. This is quite common this happens and, and women usually, you know, we don't share when we're pregnant, right until we hit, you know, the after that first trimester period. And so our bodies could be going through all kinds of stuff and nobody really knows what's going on because we're not sharing it for different reasons, right. And so she experienced the miscarriage and had this really huge presentation to do the next day. And she was the only woman in the office. And she didn't know how to tell her boss. I don't know if I can come in tomorrow, because I spent all night in the ER. And so she didn't. And she went into work the next day and did a presentation and went home and just continued to cry at home for the rest of the day after that. And, and it's like, this isn't a one off story. I've heard other women share these stories with me. So these are some of the challenges that women experienced not because you know, that we don't feel safe enough, you know, not saying that the men that worked with her wouldn't have been understanding as she shared it, because she actually ended up sharing it after. And her supervisor was very understanding. But yeah, like you just when there's nobody else that looks like you, you don't know who to go to, to share that story, right. And all those, although, as I mentioned, because I didn't want to, I don't want to break her confidence. But this is one story that she shared with me. But there are other women who shared almost identical stories with me. So when she shared that story, I was like, I know like three others that are like that. The other one which is very common. And this is my perspective of being a white woman in a male dominated industry is the sexual harassment. The romantic to put it in a nice way romantic advances propositions on a regular basis. I used to joke around if I only got sexually harassed once a year, it was a good year.

Chris Pitre
It's not funny, but it's funny. So trigger warning.

Johanna Pagonis
No, you can laugh. I meant it to be funny. You have to have a sense of dark, even if it's a dark one. Sometimes you have to be able to have a sense humor about these things.

Chris Pitre
Well, you know, what's, what's funny, and I am always shocked that it it happens, especially when it comes to just this 2021 But my, my mentor, who is now like the chief executive of a staffing firm, she's got sexually harassed by her employees who report into her, like, at a happy hour just grabs her cleavage, just yeah, just goes for it. And, you know, she's like, he's, he was drunk, but it's like, I'm like, I'm sitting there, like, oh my gosh, how does? How does this how to like, right? And I'm like, speechless. I'm like, I'm sorry. But like, can we talk about like this, unpack this like, like my psychologist, I like how do you your chief executive is a female that you just

Johanna Pagonis
that's happened to me a subordinate has flirted with me. I'm like, I thought when I got to this level support, I may have to deal with my peers or higher ups, but not my subordinates know, it was coming. A nice 360 her sexual harassment experience, you know, so yeah.

Chris Pitre
No, I'm sorry. I was I was floored. I was speechless. I was like, I don't even really comes back. Like, what is it? Like? How?

Johanna Pagonis
Can you share? How did she deal with it?

Chris Pitre
Well, she is used to being in a male dominated space and in male dominated roles, right? Because even in even though typically, staffing organizations are largely female, right, like it's a, it's considered pink collar. But clientele you know, all those conversations are still male dominated spaces, especially the higher up you get in staffing, conversations. And so she's just like, I don't know if this is our strategy. This is how I've interpreted part of what she said, but she dismisses it, because she's gotten used to it. That's so it's, like, go along to get along, I guess, is the right way to accurately describe it. But it was just shocking. And she shared like all these other situations that, you know, again, we worked together, and she was getting hit on by I'm like, How did I let she's like, Hey, and there's no shame in their game, especially behind a closed door, like, the things that she would hear. And I'm glad that she told me because I would like I'm always I'm always thinking about those types of things. And if I'm leaving someone in a situation that could be potentially unsafe. And so but it was just, it shocks me because it happens at any level. It happens, you know, regardless of age, regardless of any identifiers that somebody might consider attractive or not, right? It's just, yeah, it happens. But I was, I was, again speechless, dumbfounded completely.

Johanna Pagonis
Right. And one of the reasons why I said to like the perspective of a white woman, you add like another Another intersectional factor to that, like, if I was a woman of color, I would not only have probably have to be dealing with the sexual harassment side of it, there could be other things I'm dealing with to around racism, discrimination based on the color of my skin as well. Because I say to that, I may, at the beginning of my career, I tended to be the only female in the room that's beginning to shift. But as a woman of not a woman of color, but at a woman who is a woman of color, she's probably really the only one in the room. So there's more barriers that women of color experience when trying to ascend into leadership positions, and these microaggressions whether they be around race, or gender, or, or sex, and, yeah, the like, it's, I'm glad that you shared that with me. And I, if I could just talk a little bit about the goal with it kind of approach, because there's, there's some negatives with that part of it is you just, it's exhausting having to deal with it all the time. It's a protective mechanism that women put in place so that they can somehow get through the day and do what they need to do. You don't always be seen as rocking the boat all the time, because you will get labeled. So I get that it's it is a survival mechanism. But can you potentially see the risks when you don't step up and stay say something? Other people, it gives people permission, right to keep doing it. And he did it to you trust me, he's doing it to other women. I, we had a webinar, because I'm launching a program called Women up ignite the leader in you and to help promote the program and just educate women with the program was at a webinar, we were just a small group, eight women, and women start to talk about some of their experiences of inequity and injustice. And one woman said, you know, you have two choices, really, you can just go with it. Or you can say, maybe I could be the change, I want to see, there's risk associated with that. But is the risk worth it? And the way she put played position that for herself was yes, it is because I'm not only making a change for myself, I'm making a change for my female colleagues that work with me that I respect and, and the people are coming after me that I want to create a better work environment, I believe in my organization enough that it has the agility to change. And so I'm going to start being that change, slowly try some new things, see what the, you know, reaction is to that and just keep trying my best to influence that change. Because the alternative is, you either say nothing, and it just escalates or you end up having to quit and leave and a lot of great, wonderful, amazing talent, diverse talent walks out the door. And there's so many now the globalization and the Internet and zoom and teams and all that, really, you can work in another country, I have more options. I don't have to work for you. If you don't treat me with human decency, I'll go somewhere else. And I hope organizations start to see that.

Jeff Ma
So I guess, not to get too ahead of ourselves. But I want to talk, I guess solutions, right? I want to talk about like, what do we do? And I'll speak from the perspective, I'm a man. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand from I'm part of the problem. So how do we get to the solution? Like why have we struggled, I guess why is this problem so difficult to fix? What are the challenges you're seeing?

Johanna Pagonis
I'll actually answer that by asking a question if that's okay, please. Yes. Okay. So your selves are being organizational leaders in your company. If somebody brought it was brought to your attention, whether through an individual who felt safe enough to approach either of you, or through HR, that there was an incidence of sexual harassment in the workplace? What would you do?

Chris Pitre
I know what I would do. But Jeff, I don't know.

Jeff Ma
No go ahead, Chris.

Chris Pitre
So I take every account of those things seriously, and have and we have had that happen in our organization, unfortunately. And immediately, I get irate like, and I'm like, it's like, no questions asked, like no tolerate. Like, I'm an advocate for letting someone go. That's my first thing. Because I'm like, I don't like I'm not here to dissect it. I'm not here to justify it. Like, I don't want to excuse it. Right? And that's typically what starts to happen. When you start asking questions as the excuses come forward. It was his first time he didn't know what he was doing? It was like, Okay, so we're admitting guilt here. So, um, but so it's not about, you know, whether the comments were valid or really, like, we're saying that it happened. So great. It happened now we need to do something about it. So typically, when when organizations start to investigate, you know, I know that there's the whole Employee Relations process that has to happen and you know, all of those things. But to me if they're especially if there's more than one incident and you More than one person comes forward. You know, I believe in that old adage to people can't tell the same lie. Right, like, so. To me, it's not worth the harm that could be caused, even if it's a high performer. And so I immediately go to that, you know, decision, because I just one, aside from the risk, and like you being sort of the employer who validates or allows for that to happen, it just, it changes the experience that every woman now has, because they do talk, right, they, everybody who looks like you, you typically have some sort of back channel with, right, regardless of the identity marker. And so you already have now created a reputation as an employer of allowing that kind of behavior. And it limits your ability to retain and recruit not just that impacted, you know, victim, but all of the other people who look like her. Right?

Johanna Pagonis
Yeah, well said, Chris.

Chris Pitre
And so that is why I immediately go to like, you know, a surgical procedure we got to remove, remove the issue, like, let's not even play with it, let's not sit on it. Let's not try and debate it. But again, I'm one leader among many, right, and so you don't always have the ability to make that call. And that be that, but that's totally my go to. But it doesn't always work out that way. Because as you can imagine, some people are out to protect others who might be doing harm, right?

Johanna Pagonis
Mm hmm. You want to add?

Jeff Ma
Oh, man, I like I personally have not dealt the situation. I'm putting myself mentally in there right now. Everything Chris says is something that sounds sounds absolutely what needs to happen. I don't know why there would be any avenue otherwise. But I haven't yet experienced this myself, you know, I'm not trying to pre make excuses or anything like that. These people have names, these people have stories. And when it really happens, I'm sure all these factors come swirling in and you having to deal with is very complicated, emotional, kind of crazy. But on paper, I'm like, this type of behavior is not tolerated, but not to be tolerated. And it should just be, you know, you know, it has to have consequences. And so that's, that's where I start as well.

Chris Pitre
And Johanna, it actually gets even crazier when you take on a global organization. US we have laws, we have very clear things when you start working overseas where they don't have protections, right? My decision or my call is seen as like crazy, extreme and inappropriate, even though I'm like, Well, I want a safe workplace for women everywhere in the workforce today, no matter where we operate. But that's also a factor into it, right? And being a global company ourselves. Like it's, it's different, right? Like I can't always apply our labor laws to situations overseas, right. And so when you have harassment claims, regardless of what they are overseas, you know, it becomes now a a legal conversation more so than an ethical conversation, because it could be wrongful termination over there to let someone go for creating an unsafe work environment through harassment when it's not seen as harassment in their in their jurisdiction. Right.

Johanna Pagonis
I'm so glad you mentioned that. That's a very important factor or element that can complicate things right. So I'm glad you mentioned that, if I can share kind of my what I'm thinking and I'll bring it back to my days of anti bullying programs and working a whole school system approach, right. And so we used to teach it from the perspective of there's a bully, or there's an individual who's engaging in bullying behaviors. There's an individual who's been victimized, and then there's the bystandard. And so when you have the bully and the victim, you could say, look, those are the two individuals that are in this sexual harassment, complaint, a complaint, right? The bystander could very well be colleagues, co workers who have seen or even the organization itself, like the organizational leaders at the top could be the bystandard. And so I think, first of all, look at it that way, see it as on an individual level in regards to these are just individually, not just but these are individuals who are experiencing something. And if you approach it with I have this growth mindset, or I think everybody has the potential to be better. And that means that the person who's engaging in bullying or sexual harassment behaviors, if we can try to see that person as maybe still having the potential to learn from this, can we see in that respect, you know, not just label them as evil purposely trying to harm somebody. And I'll tell you where this comes from. This is right from my own experience. I'll say I'll share the process and then talk about how I did it personally when I experienced sexual harassment. So see this as an individual who may be may have the capacity to learn and grow from this and stop that behavior, number one. Number two, we have somebody who's, who's been harmed psychologically, and maybe even physically, that needs to be addressed immediately and to make that person feel safe. And that could be part of what you need to feel safe. Empathy is just about being able to listen and not place judgment on what the person is sharing with you and not discrediting or devaluing and saying, Yeah, but you know, it's just the way we are here type of thing. But say, this is serious, I hear you. And we're going to do what we need to do to help you feel protected, and asking them, What do you need to feel protected? Sometimes HR, what we'll do is they'll move you, they'll take the victim and move them to another work area, and make it out, we'll resolve the issue, the behavior still exist and impacting the other women who are left behind. And then myself, who is the victim that's been placed into new work area? What message are you sending to me when you do that? And, and maybe I don't like where you're moving me? And maybe you're moving me if the culture is condones this behavior, and you're just you're just moving the problem? You know, so let's not do that either, right, devaluing what have I experienced. And then, and then trying to, you know, look at the organization as a system in terms of what are your values? And what do you put out there? What do you, what do you accept? What do you reinforce? You know, what do you take accountability for an address immediately. And that is more of a long term game, right? And so, you know, schools have zero tolerance for bullying policy. Those policies are like zero tolerance for sexual harassment, sometimes those policies don't work very well, because you haven't equipped the people in the organization to understand how they need to behave and be in order to live that policy. So when you talked about, we're an international global organization, laws are different everywhere. That's a very compliance enforcement approach to dealing with issues. And the argument I make is, you have to understand what the laws are the the, the, in order to be compliant with them. But let's go beyond compliance and understand what do we need to do to make people feel committed to one another? And that's goes back to love. How do we create a culture where people love one another, so when they find out that they may have hurt somebody, that's not acceptable. And we're going to educate that one person that hurts somebody, because that's unacceptable. We work through love. And that's not love. Sometimes when we love people, we hurt them. So let's, let's give that person who hurt the other person an opportunity to learn from that, you know, and if they don't learn from that, well, then you don't have a wrongful termination lawsuit on your hand, when you've when you've demonstrated through documentation, what you've done to support this individual change their behavior, if they are not able to do that, then you can, chances are, you'll be able to fire them, they may still sue you, but they don't have much of a leg to stand on. Right. So I think that's it's a complex approach, but you to do it in baby steps. And I think it all starts with the organizational leaders at the top in terms of what they say is okay, yeah, before I share my personal experience, I want to ask you what your thoughts are?

Chris Pitre
No, I agree with everything you just said. And the, the restorative justice model, I'm calling a restorative justice, that that approach to when someone does offend another, allowing them the chance to learn from that. And so how, what they cause in terms of damage, so they can sort of understand that, hey, what you did was wrong, but pulling you away and putting you in prison or moving into another role doesn't change anything. But allowing you to actually be a part of the solution going forward. And maybe you tell what you did to someone else, like, I did this, don't ever do this, right? Like, sometimes that is a better way of sort of one, getting people to see the impact of their behavior, but to allow them to still feel like they're part of the community, the team, etc. So it doesn't make this lasting sort of mark on, you know, the fabric of the company, or the team or the organization. So, I completely agree. And so I think from, from, you know, what we've been learning and doing, you know, even with Love as a Business Strategy, where we're talking about sexual harassment, whether we're talking about discrimination, or we're talking about just getting angry with someone, like it's all sort of coming down to your behavior, right? And how willing are you to change, but also how willing are you to listen to the lived experiences that are different from your own and understand that, even though you might be okay with that, or it was okay for that other person? It doesn't mean that that's okay for everyone. Right? And then being willing to adjust or, you know, at least upfront Express where you're coming from, like, so many ways to handle how do you move forward to avoid the situation where someone is walking away saying, that was not okay for me.

Johanna Pagonis
Right. And you know what to add to what you said, Chris made me think of this and you're I think you're saying This but address that inappropriate, harmful behaviors, but how can we empower the person who has been victimized through this experience, so they don't see themselves as a victim anymore. But they see themselves as empowered and given permission by the organization to challenge these behaviors and encourage other women or other people to challenge all hurtful behaviors, right? So they can feel empowered and confident to deal with it, because it will happen again. Yeah, whether it's within that organization or another organization.

Jeff Ma
I want to platform that into another problem that you stated earlier in the in this in this show was that a lot of women don't have someone above them to model or see as a role model that look like them. And that can lead to the inability to speak up or feeling like, like the example you gave, sometimes it's not even that, that they won't be accepted, or they won't be heard. It's just that they don't have anyone. It's kind of the self, you know, perpetuating problem, right? Because there's no leader up top that looks like them. And they themselves are then not empowered and not enabled to become that next leader, as well. How do we solve that problem? What is the the blind spot, I guess, here that people are missing?

Johanna Pagonis
Right? So the way I try to do it, at least is try to approach it from two to two ways, right? The individual the organization, so when it comes to the individual, some of that is investing in people's professional development. And by understanding the challenges and barriers that certain people within a population experiencing and trying to give them access to resources, professional development, mentors, stretch assignments, whatever it is, to help them develop number one confidence within themselves, and that they feel valued by the organization, help them uncover what their strengths are, that can go a long way in helping us develop the confidence to take risks. If we have an organizational leader who says I believe in you, I want to invest in you, you have great strengths, let's figure out what those are really articulate them and then leverage them. And then that way we can support you to continually grow and within this organization, so some of his like, let's some of it is like let's give them more insight into what their strengths are leverage those that will go along with increasing their confidence to take risks, try new things, which also means challenging processes, or certain norms or behaviors that should be challenged, it takes a lot of confidence to do that. I'm more willing to do that. If I feel like I can go to my boss, and they'll support me, which is what happened to me, I went to my boss, I said, this is what happened, this is what I'm doing. And I was like, I support you, what do you need, but it took time for me to develop that confidence. And it came from the fact that I had an organization who invested in my professional development, who put me on stretch assignments, who gave me access to mentors who included me in things like, you know, social gatherings where a lot of the business dealings happen, you know, I was included in that I wasn't excluded, you know, was like, oh, that's happened to me, we're all the guys other at the golf tournament, none of the women were invited. So you know, I may not go forward to my boss to say I'm feeling this by this individual, I feel harassed or unsafe from this individual. If I'm being excluded from all of these opportunities, it's clear message, you're not important. Anybody who has a ....

Chris Pitre
You know, what has been said on the podcast. So I think I completely agree with everything you just said. And, you know, I often tell the team and when I reflect on my own sort of growth in my career, I grew the most underneath women leadership, right. And I will confidently and boldly tell everybody that like I have grown the most of my career, when I was being led by a woman. And under that I was able to go to this conference where this was a topic. And they had I can't remember her name. But she was talking about, like the impacts that women have had when they've been at the helm of companies or even societies and whatnot. And she brought up in 1950s, when all the men were at war, and the women had to run the home and run businesses, how our lifespans increased, access to education increased, like women take care of things. And this is not to be like, I don't want to sort of generalize and say like, this is the what a woman does, but just the importance of the priority shifted when men were at war, right? Men are short term thinkers typically, right? So they think about immediate satisfaction and sort of, you know, going to the bars when they get off work and burning through them, right. Like they, that was sort of the norm, whereas when women have the responsibility to manage finances, children had to go to the doctor, they saved for education, they made sure the kids had what they needed for clothes and everything, right, like, all of those things were reprioritize in a home Then because of that lifespans increased, going into the businesses, there's more care put into the employee base, right? Like, all of those things happened underneath women leadership. And when you see that, even to this day, typically businesses grow underneath a woman in leadership, right. And then there's more long term investments and mid term investments, because they, they think longer, typically than men, right. And I don't want to generalize, because there's, there's, I'm sure there's a man who are long term thinkers and women who are short term thinkers, but, but traditionally, and statistically, that tends to be how a lot of differences play out when it comes to women and leadership. And a lot of people just don't know these facts, but also a history that supports some of the justification as to why it is a problem that we don't have enough women in leadership, women of color, you know, white women, women into like, just women, right? And so I completely agree with your, your notion around like, there needs to be more mentorship, there needs to be a lot more access to opportunity. And there also, it sounds like there needs to be advocates and allies on the male side of things to say, Absolutely. There's a woman in here. Like, where are the? Like, what's going on here? This is crazy. Like, I'm not gonna go if I'm gonna be, you know, I'm gonna say a derogatory term. Is this a sausage fest? I don't want to go right. You know, like, we should be more vocal. And that because it shouldn't just be if the conversation has to live only with women, there won't be much progress.

Johanna Pagonis
I agree. Yeah, and you know, so that's a good example of individual level, what I can do to take advantage and the opportunities that my company's giving to me. But what you can do as a company to offer these opportunities is important to think of so it's individual and organization level, what you can do.

Jeff Ma
This is a topic that is, is just so important to talk about, I think, like I asked that question very genuinely earlier, because I'm like, how do we overcome this?

Chris Pitre
I have a question actually for Johanna. So one of the things that the same speaker said was that here's one of the some of the gotchas or the pitfalls that women have sometimes when they get into leadership, and you brought this up a little bit earlier. But it was when women have to out men, the men, and they become more aggressive, or they do the the ick factor things and they sort of adopt that wholeheartedly in order to feel like they have to stay in leadership. So I'm curious to know, what advice do you have for women to avoid that? Or if they have sort of succumb to that, that sort of direction? You know, how do they sort of double back to what's more natural to them?

Johanna Pagonis
That's a great question. Two concepts I'll present that I think are easy to grasp, and that will grasp and them always guide you in the right way. It's called the anchor and the lighthouse. So the anchor is your purpose, like why do you want to be a leader? Ask yourself that first and foremost, you know, you is it just for the corner office, back in the day, you know, or the bigger paycheck really better benefits? Or is it you had this intrinsic need to want to help and support other people lead others for good for altruistic purposes. So articulate that for yourself, because when times get tough, and they will, especially if you're a woman in a male dominated industry, when you're lost when you're at sea, that's why I call it you know, use like nautical terms, right, your, the waves, start really getting kind of controlling the boats all over the place, the anchor, hopefully keep you grounded. And that's your purpose that should ground you. So when you feel like you don't know what direction to go, and just go back to your purpose, let it be granted, ground you and so you can get a sense of the direction you need to go in, once you're ready to move forward, what was reaffirmed what your purpose is, look towards your lighthouse. And for me, the lighthouse are your values. Values are behaviors, ultimately, it's things that are important to you that if we were removed from you, you wouldn't be the person you are anymore. So those are your values and they guide your actions. So once you're ready to move forward, find your Lighthouse think about your values and and then take whatever advice is being given to you and and you know, contrast it with that purpose that anchoring and and lighthouse to say is that really feel right with me. Does that feel authentic to me to move in this direction that people or at least I'm feeling or perceiving that people are trying to push me into that direction? If it doesn't feel right, like you get that ick factor because it's going against your values, and it's going against your purpose. Don't do it. Some people say make it fake it till you make it. Okay, me, you know what if you're trying to do you want to take a risk and do something but you're a bit nervous. Go for it. I understand the analogy of fake it till you make it. But if you're going to go in a direction that you really feel like is totally the wrong direction for you to go in. Don't fake it till you make it stop right there and go the direction you need to go. And because people will know when you're not being authentic, and when you're not authentic, that's when you lose credibility, that's when people don't trust you, and no one will follow you. And that's what ends up happening to us. Sometimes it can happen to men too. But I've heard this happen to a lot of women where they're like, I feel like this is how I have to behave, embrace your female power. Hopefully, one day we can start, stop labeling it as female power and just call it great leadership. And and follow that path, you know, do what feels right to you. And I would challenge I would argue and say probably being really aggressive, isn't it, you know, unless you're hurt.

Jeff Ma
Johanna before we close, can you just take a moment and tell the audience how they can find you what you're working on, you know, plug yourself a little bit while we still have this time.

Johanna Pagonis
Sure, thank you. So how you can find me, obviously, on LinkedIn on there, you can go to my websites, and Sinogap Solutions. It's my last name spelled backwards. So get SinogapSolutions.com. I encourage you to learn more about the organization through the website, you'll know everything, you'll learn everything you need to know. But I'm also encouraging people and your listeners to learn more about the Woman Up The Leader in You program, it's very different. It's an 11 week program, where women come together to uncover their purpose, their lighthouse, their anchor, uncover their strengths, and learn and practice new skills on how to communicate in a way that feels authentic to them how to get through really difficult times and, and understand what your emotional triggers are, and how to still manage those emotions. So you can get the positive outcomes that you're seeking for yourself. And it's quite a community of women coming together. Because if especially if you work in an area where there's not a lot of women, you want to be able to be mentored or find a female co-striver, who's trying to get promoted and work with them. This program offers women this community, it's all virtual. So although the women are coming from different parts across Canada, I mean, there's nothing to prevent somebody from the States to joining or other parts of the world, just the timezone would be the challenge. But go go to the website, go click on the tab that says courses. And you can learn all about the woman up program there. And feel free to connect with me through LinkedIn, or even through the Contact Us page. I'd love to hear any questions that you have and engage in a conversation with you.

Jeff Ma
I love it. That sounds like an amazing, amazing opportunity. And so Johanna, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your stories and sharing these insights and something that I have lots of go back and think about, and I really appreciate you taking the time.

Johanna Pagonis
Thank you for having me. It was a wonderful conversation. It was it was wonderful. I mean, you know, connecting with you again, Jeff was great. And meeting you, Chris for the first time and having this conversation with you both was really insightful for me as well. So thank you.

Chris Pitre
Thank you.

Jeff Ma
And thank you to our listeners who as always have stayed true and listen to us for a new episode every Wednesday. And I will never stop ever stop telling you to go get our book because we're very proud of it. We think it's great love as a business strategy. Please do check it out. And if you like the podcast, give us that feedback right there, review and subscribe and tell a friend. So with that. Thank you again, Johanna.