Irma Neal  
In an environment of chaos, there is always somebody within the organization who is benefiting from the chaos.

Jeff Ma  
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to talk we want to talk about topics that most business leaders tend to shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff, ma and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people about real businesses in real life. My guest today is Irma Neal. And Irma is a seasoned financial coach, leadership expert and author of the book Leading in chaos, insights to lead through the storms. With decades of experience guiding individuals and organizations through organizational turbulence and leadership challenges, Irma has been a trusted voice in developing strategies to navigate uncertainty with resilience and empathy. As an owner of Onyx Rising a firm that specializes in DEI and financial change management, Irma is passionate about helping leaders embrace love and care as powerful tools for overcoming chaos in the workplace. Her book leading in chaos is a reflection of her belief that leadership rooted in love and empathy could guide organizations and teams through the toughest of storms. Irma advocates for using compassion and understanding as strategic approaches to leadership, especially in moments of crisis. And I love that intro because it uses all of my favorite words, and I'm ready to dive into it here with Irma. Irma, how are you doing today?

Irma Neal  
I'm good. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it

Jeff Ma  
absolutely. And there's a question I start everybody off with, and it's always the same meaning. I always want to know it because, Irma, I want to hear about your passion. What is your passion and how did you find it?

Irma Neal  
My passion is developing people taking a the holistic approach. When I was coming up through the ranks, we used to always say, leave your personal life at home. Well, we know that's not true. You can't leave your personal life at home. And so it's actually looking at the whole person and making decisions judgments about that person based on how they interact with me and how they interact in the workplace. If that answers your question, I've been passionate about that since the beginning. I think I got my first management job I was probably 30, and again and again, it was looking at the whole person and just being real successful over the years by taking that approach by being inclusive, by by being open to what's happening outside the office and how it impacts what's going on in the office. Very cool. Boy, have I? Boy, have I had some experience? And that's

Jeff Ma  
what you're here for today. I mean, here's a here's the thing on this show we've been running for a couple of years, and we've talked a lot about love, obviously, but we also one of our favorite things is, is around empathy and care, and we talk about passion and leaders and these tools and all these things. But today, I actually wanted to have a different angle on things, because use a lot of words in your book and in your bio here around chaos and the storm and kind of the ugly side and the realities that we don't talk about enough because we're always talking about solutions, and solutions is where I want to go with it. But Irma, I really wanted you here today to help also paint some pictures and perspectives from your experiences around that chaos, and just kind of shine a light on the realities and of the real world, right? And stuff that many other people might be related like, kind of relating to and living through as well. So to talk about that a little bit, if you don't mind about this, this side of this chaos, side of thing, the storm. What does that look like? What has that looked like for you? Well,

Irma Neal  
it was a lot of incredible things happening all at once. I dealt with two drug overdoses in the office in a 30 day period, mental health crisis with one of the employees, and that was really a harrowing experience. I dealt with bullying, extreme bullying, and how to deal with that, and then personal attacks that led to investigations about me personally, you know, because, and this is a point I think I want to get across that in an environment of chaos. There. Always somebody within the organization who is benefiting from the chaos. Okay, not only do they add to it, they tend to get something out of a chaotic environment. And so they're going to fight you every step of the way as you try to one step at a time take that, break down the chaos, and make it streamline business processes the way an organization is supposed to run. So it's also dealing with those different types of personalities. I think one of the things that has helped me the most is that I don't pre judge people coming into an organization, I say to them from the beginning, I don't read your personnel I won't read your personnel file. I don't care at this point what happened in the past. This is about you and me and how we work together to build success for this organization, and I'm taking you like you're a blank piece of paper, and that's how I want you to take me, too. And then if we do that together, we can get where we both want to go, which is a smooth, consistent operation that meets the goals that we have set out together. And again, it's always inclusive.

Jeff Ma  
Irma talk a little bit about, I guess, what it takes like, I know that you work a lot in developing actual strategies around, kind of navigating this uncertainty or change in this overall chaos. So what are those strategies look like.

Irma Neal  
What are the strategies look like? You know that that's a good question, because so much of what I have done is instinctually like. It's almost like my brain just tells me, okay, here's the next place to go, right? So I guess the strategy at first is, again, I get back to the inclusive. You have to make sure that everybody understands what you're communicating, understand what you're asking of them, and then showing them how they fit into the big picture, right? So we always have to answer the question, why are you making a change? And what's in it for me, and when you can show them the vision, that's what they've gotta buy into, first the vision, and then you if you can get them to buy into the vision, the next step of what are we what are the things we need to do to make this vision a reality? And what's your part in making that, via vision, a reality? Now really, this takes, and I found this to be true, to be inclusive, takes a lot more time, because you do have to bring people along. You do have to spend time with them, letting them see how they are a part of the success and how they don't benefit from being a part of the failure. And that does take, that takes some time, that takes some conversation, that takes them back and forth. One of the things I always said that if, if I if I don't get back what I expected, the first thing I do in my head is say, Did I communicate effectively what it was I wanted the intended outcome to be? And a lot of times I haven't. And so it's that conversation. And again, it's taking the whole person. You know, I never will forget one time I saw this one employee, she was just incredible in my in my eyes. I mean, there wasn't anything she couldn't do, anything I asked her to do. She delved right in and did it. And of course, I, as a manager, I wanted to promote, promote, promote, right? And finally, she said to me, I don't want that, you know, I don't I'm comfortable where I am. Well, for me and probably for you, to be comfortable is a bad place to be, right? But for some people, for her, she said, I'm okay. You're basically and what I heard as her manager was, you're pushing me too fast. You see things in me that I don't see in myself yet. And so slow down is the is what she communicated to me slow down, you know, and then there again, that's taking the whole person, you know, just understanding that I saw more something in her. I was too far ahead of or too many steps ahead of her for her to feel comfortable in moving forward. That makes any sense, you. Makes sense, yeah, so it, and you know, a lot of managers, especially when you're dealing in a profit and loss environment, like most of us are, who are in corporate America, don't want to take the time to get the inclusive part of it. We like for the person to to march to the beat that we set, you know. And that's okay for a minute, but at some point you're gonna, you're gonna hit a roadblock, if, if you haven't taken the time to get them to buy into the vision of where you're trying to go,

Jeff Ma  
makes sense. It does make sense. So I feel like we've, we had a little taste of the of the kind of I gave you, gave quick phrases around the chaos you've experienced, many of which I'm very, very curious about. But we've also kind of arrived at this kind of end state, or kind of inclusion and kind of how to navigate these things. So can you help bridge those two? So how did these experiences and chaos and all these stories, how did they inform or shape kind of how you got to where you are today? How did you get to these solutions through some of the wild experiences that you just kind of shared a second ago?

Irma Neal  
Well, first of all, I didn't do it alone. You know? I used every lever that I had at my disposal to try to solve problems. I brought in outside consultants when I needed to. I informed like especially with the mental illness breakdown that happened in the office. And that was pretty graphic, can't I won't talk about here. You can read it in the book. But in that particular case, I brought in the employee relations people, the nurses, the medical staff, the government personnel department, all of those to give me to help me build a way to help this employee. She actually spent several months in in a mental facility, and what I learned was her backstory, and that, again, taking the whole person, her backstory was so horrific, there wasn't any reason why she would not be unstable. She couldn't have gone through all that and been normal. So it was just a matter of pulling all the resources together to get her the help she needed. And the reason she was worth it was because when she was okay, was she was something. This was a lady that in her head could solve almost any math problem you gave her, I mean, just that kind of analytical mind. But she was sick and so and then she came back to the agency after she went through treatment and and she's a real success story, because she just with the right medication, with the right work environment, she just excel. I saw a year later, and she was still doing well. I saw that five years ago, and she was still doing well, you know, so that's one of the things that I feel most happy about, is that I didn't just throw it away, that I did see that that she had value and that she could make it and what it's done for me personally is made me fearless. The things that I saw in the in some of the agencies that I've turned around is that I'm just not afraid of anything in the workplace anymore. I mean, bring it on, you know? I mean, it's, it's just things that other people, other managers, would want to do away with or get out of their organizations, I just feel in my core that every single person has worth, every single person, every one of us, have worth, and we, as leaders, it's part of our responsibility to figure out that worth and how to use it in our organizations to create success.

Jeff Ma  
I love that idea that every individual has worth. How do you when you get to certain points in business where I'm sure you do have to, I guess, part ways with people, or that you find that someone's worth isn't the right fit. How does that, I guess, fit into your philosophy and your belief system here, yeah, and

Irma Neal  
you're right again. There are people who just really don't fit with where you want to go. And I think the what's the thing that's led me best in that? Is, again, the conversation around there's nothing wrong with you. It's that your skill set is not what we need to get to this particular point. And then how do I help you get to a place that's more because if their skill set doesn't fit, they know it before you know it. You know they know that they that they aren't contributing to the extent that they would like to. So again, it's a conversation about that and and how do I again, around the the skill set? How do I get you some place where you might be comfortable and don't think I haven't fired people, because I fired a lot of folks for real. I remember the first the first lady I fired. I couldn't believe that I done. She had two small kids and Jeff, I kid you not. I was still crying about having to fire that lady, and and she had gotten another job, and I was still crying because I had to fire because she had two little kids, and she was a single mom, right? So, but again, it's for me anyway, by the when I am at the point where you I have to terminate you. You already know it's coming, right? I'll give you another example. I had to terminate the One God good guy skills didn't fit. He had to go. But I had had so many conversations with him that when, when the AX finally I called him in my office and the AX finally fell. You know what he said? What do you say? Thank you, Miss Neil. Yeah, he knew it was coming. You know the the surprises are, are not good for for a successful organization, because, because employees, if you, if you treat one employee disrespectfully, or it impacts the others, because the key thing they say is, if, if, if she'll treat him that way, She'll certainly do the same thing to me, right? So that's why you need to have the conversations all along the way. Now I know probably some of your listeners are probably saying I don't have that kind of time to spend with individuals like you're talking about, and I would just challenge you to say the time you spend dealing with the whole person will give you the kind of rewards that you really want, and you'll see that it's worth the time in the long run. Yeah,

Jeff Ma  
I always say you gotta choose your heart exactly because, everything's hard, but you can do the hard thing now with the benefit later, or you can put it off now and deal with the hard later, when

Irma Neal  
right, you're going to deal with it though, one way or the other, you're going to deal with it. That's right, yeah, so when

Jeff Ma  
it comes to, I mean, you've given so many, like, great kind of tidbits and advice and all sorts of different angles on a lot of these different workplace dynamics. But when we talk about, kind of focusing on the chaos and all this, and we talk about a way out of that, is there, is there like a, is there like a formula for this? Do you have like a, like a playbook for making your way out of chaos and leading, leading through chaos, or is it? Is it all these things? It's

Irma Neal  
all of them, but it's incremental and and I think that that's the thing, that when you have a clear vision, you can identify the steps you're taking the move toward that vision. You know what I mean? I mean you're not going to get it all at once. All the things that I talk to you about that happened in one organization, they the success didn't happen in six months. It didn't it happened over a three year period. But at each time, I could see where we were getting better, and then the bottom line shows you that too. The Profit Loss shows you that very clearly whether you're actually getting better, reaching your goal the way, the way you want to the other way to judge it is by the atmosphere of the staff. Do you have a happy staff. Do you? Do you have the respect of the staff? Do you respect them? Do they respect you? What's the overall feel in your office when somebody walks in from the outside? Can they tell I can generally tell when, when I walk into an office. I can generally tell whether whether it's a good place to work or a bad place to work, just by the people at the front desk. You know, the person greeting me, you know. So there are all these indicators that let you know that your your vision, is being in the forefront. And the thing I used to have to always say to myself, and I still say is block out all the noise. Stay focused. And I had to say that a lot stay focused. Some of this stuff that's happening, it's noise. It doesn't get you where you need to go. So don't look over here at the shiny object. Stay focused. Stay focused. And that's part of the what you have to do with your staff too, is stay have them to stay focused on the goal.

Jeff Ma  
I feel like one of the themes that always comes up is around a level of self awareness, especially for leaders. A lot of things you just said requires, I think, a pretty healthy amount of introspection and kind of like a a pause to really assess, kind of, your own awareness around what's going on, which, in my experience, is not everybody's strength is not, is not a leader strength when they're kind of, you know, in their defense, working through a lot of work and A lot of problems, a lot of things, they're not pausing to be like, Oh, am I the problem? Is it me? And I think that creates a lot of challenges, I think, for teams. So I was wondering if you could speak to kind of leadership within this space, because I think people look to leaders to take them and guide them through chaos. But also, leaders can be the chaos, and often will be the source of or at least make it worse. So what are some ways that leaders can really make sure that they're leading their teams or organizations through chaos the right way? You

Irma Neal  
know that's very true, that the leader can be the chaos. I think I've lived through that too. I think that good leaders, it's a learned behavior to be introspective and to reflect on are you getting what you desire from your team? Almost all of the leadership books say that you have to that leaders have to be visionaries. They have to take a step back, understand where they're asking people to go. Need to reflect through yoga or some, some way to to wind down and get in touch with that quote, inner self. I think that, and I've been in situations where you just go, go, go, go, go, you don't have time to to do that. Fortunately for me, I was in a situation where I was not leading a team. I've never, and I can say never, and I'm pretty old now, but I've never let a team without that pause and reflection and and I know, and I have ways of how I know I'm doing it right, okay? Because if the employee will say something like me, I find it so hard to say no to you, because I know you won't ask me to do anything that that you won't do. Ding, ding, ding, good, okay. Or if, if they come back and it's, it's, I'm not getting what I want, and I go through the conversation again, here's where we need to go. Is there anything about this that I'm missing that you don't understand, or or whatever, the feedback you know, and one of the indicators that you may not be getting through is silence. Mm, hmm. If you if the employee sits there and is silent, you've got some work to do. You need to, you know, dig to to make sure that what you want communicated is actually being communicated to that person.

Jeff Ma  
Very well said, I think, I think the biggest challenge for many leaders is this idea that that they are doing well, because no one's complained, right?

Irma Neal  
Isn't that the truth? They they take silence for agreement. Yeah, that that you and I both know that's not necessarily what it means. Yeah,

Jeff Ma  
it takes a tremendous amount of courage for somebody to go to their leader and say, Hey, you're not doing this right, or I don't like this. So it oftentimes doesn't happen unless the leader is intentionally creating a way for that to happen through relationship and through safety. Yeah,

Irma Neal  
I think, I think you hit on a key point there and there again, is talking about being inclusive. And taking the whole person, because I've always demanded that you speak to me respectfully, and I'll do the same to you, but I want to hear what you've got to say, even if it's not what I want to hear. Right? I in order to be really, really good leaders, we have to know what's going on in our organizations with the people who are working in that organization, and that means being willing to listen to the criticism that may hurt our feelings or may be totally unjustified, but it's, again, the conversation as to somebody says it's totally unjustified, I feel it's unjustified. There's going to be a conversation about, well, why do you feel the way you feel? Why you feel that way? What are your reasons for doing that, and then have me talk back to them and say, here's what's really going on. You know? Because in certain positions, employees don't see the big picture. They only see their portion of it. You know, if there's a change coming down, they don't necessarily see why. You know, I mean, I'll give you, and I'm stepping out into controversy now, but with the return to with corporations requiring that employees return back to the office. It wasn't a lack of productivity. The Productivity actually went up right while they with this remote learning from everything I've read. Okay, so the leader may need for them to be back in the office, but it would go much smoother. If the leader said, here are the reasons why we think this is a better fit for us to meet our goal, our vision, having you all in the office. Make sense? Yeah, yeah. So,

Jeff Ma  
so I guess, as we round out near the end here, help me, I guess close the loop here on all of this, we have so many different tips and advice you gave across different ways to work with the teams, different ways to kind of include, different ways to address and be communicative. Can you, I guess, leave us with kind of a way to round out the chaos and how to how to like, what can leaders take away today? That's something they can go back and do right now, if they're facing chaos in their space, if they're facing struggles and storms in their environment. What would you say is the place to start something simple they can take with them?

Irma Neal  
Well, I'd say the first thing to is to do is to break it down into into parts, because you can't do everything at one time. For me, I always thought in threes, these are the three things that I need to do to work my way out of this chaos in this organization. And when those three things were done, then you move on to the next part. It's, it's, it's, it's, seeing the whole but breaking it down into parts, digestible parts that you can do on a daily basis to make the organization better.

Jeff Ma  
What are your three things right now for you?

Irma Neal  
Well, it needs to be a lot. I have to be in chaos in order,

Jeff Ma  
you can always have three things. There's always a little bit of chaos in life. There

Irma Neal  
is always a little bit of three things. But for me, the first was, was again, to to look. I didn't, I didn't look at the person. I mean, I didn't the person was a a blank sheet for me, but the financials weren't okay, where the where the organization was in terms of profit and loss and all that stuff. So for me, it was making adjustments to the financial goals that the organization wanted to take. That was one of the first things. And then the second was an assessment of the the team, the supervisors, the management team, to see where their strengths were and all that stuff, and then to go from there. But as business people, we always gotta look at the financials first. I mean, that's what you're in business for and stuff. That's true profit, you know? So, yeah.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, absolutely. Irma, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and your insights. I think it's been really, really awesome to see it all pieced together and just just kind of lived through by you. So I appreciate you coming today.

Irma Neal  
Thank you for having me. It was fun. It really was

Jeff Ma  
awesome. And to the listeners, make sure you check out her book, Leading in chaos, insights to lead through the storms. Anywhere else you'd like them to go, Irma or anything else you'd like if they want to get in touch with you. Learn more.

Irma Neal  
Yeah, um. Website is www.Onyx2rise.com the book is available for purchase on there, you'll also hear a lot more about what we do as an organization, our inclusive leadership series that we do. So hopefully we've made an impact today. I hope for some of your listeners a little bit sure

Jeff Ma  
we did. And to listeners, thank you so much for tuning. In hope you're enjoying the podcast and the guests, and just give us your feedback. Keep listening. Share with your friends and check out the book. My book Love is a business strategy, if you have

Irma Neal  
so with that pretty good book too, I read it.

Jeff Ma  
Thank you. All right,

Irma Neal  
thank you.

Jeff Ma  
We will see everybody in two weeks. Take care. All right, take care.