Wais Achikzad  
For years and years of observation of our industry and kind of the way we let it was void of that I can say that unequivocally confidently. EI/EQ is not emphasized on Wall Street. It's just not it's about the bottom line. And by any means necessary.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. And I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm excited to have conversations and hear stories from real people and talk about how businesses really operate in the real world. My guest today is Wais Achikzad, he is the founder and CEO at Xen Culture Solutions LLC, and also happens to be someone who shares the same vision and mission that we have here at Love as a Business Strategy and Culture+. He has spent his career working in Wall Street and banking, but has recently left his role as Vice President at JPMorgan Chase, to pursue his passion, which is where our paths have recently collided. And I'm so excited to have him here to talk today about something to me that I'm just very excited and intrigued in being able to share all the things that I've already learned from life. So welcome to the show, Wais. How are you?

Wais Achikzad  
Thank you, Jeff, really appreciate it. It's truly an honor and a privilege to be on your show. And thank you for the warm introduction. I'm doing well and just excited to be on and just to kind of chat and share ideas. And hopefully, people can gain a little bit of benefit into what we're talking about.

Jeff Ma  
Oh, and I know they will, because I already have in the short time that we've we've been able to spend together. But, you know, from the contextually to set things up. Love as a business strategy has been the mantra for me for a very long time. And I've always told people that although I believe what we do, and what we believe in, applies at a human level across all work all industries. I've always said that there's and I've said this before on the show, that there's two places that have always scared me a little bit or has been daunting. And that's been that's been in law and in in finance, or banking and, and money. So you've had an incredible kind of career and story and journey. And I love to just start there because I want to get to the love piece. But I think the context is so important. Where are you? Where do you? Where do you come from? And how did you get to this point?

Wais Achikzad  
Yeah, no, thank you, Jeff. And I, again, I just the fact that you guys have produced this kind of work. And the philosophy itself is so powerful. And for me, you know, the concept of love in your workplace, can seem foreign to a lot. But coming from Wall Street, it's definitely not a place where that word can be associated with what happens on the ground, actually. So having been in the industry for about 20 years, you know, JP Morgan, I was at 13 years, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, I've seen all the big players on the street, and been there and in leadership positions. And, for me, I think the journey really started, you know, my first few years, as you get sort of inducted into the, into the workplace, you know, you're young, you're impressionable. You have hopes and aspirations just like anyone does. And you think that oh, it's, you know, you found the dream job, you now JP Morgan, you know, and you quickly realize that, look, it's a business, right? It's a business and the focus, especially on Wall Street is about the client, the client, the quarterly earnings, it's, it's what have you done for me lately? And as you sort of step into that world, you quickly realize that you, the employee, are not at the center of their universe, right, it is the center of their universe is the client. That's the bottom line. And it's always been that way on Wall Street and and hasn't changed. And so, you quickly have to as an employee, you have to adapt to that and understand that that is the focus. Right? And so what happens is, when that happens, the culture that gets created is one where decisions are made by the higher ups in terms of the front you know, the company and its first. For the for the betterment of the company, the focus, obviously, the decisions that are made, tend to work against the employee. Right. And whether it's layoffs, whether it's there's a whole different examples, I can give many different examples I can give him on what that is. But ultimately, it's the culture that gets created. Right? The culture is one where fear, perhaps, okay, if it's about the client, then where do I fit into the picture? And remember, also Wall Street's very bonus driven incentive laden? Right, so now you're trying to, you're trying to outwork your colleagues and kind of outdo them, and you're not working as a team, in some instances, because of the way that sort of the structure is, and where the focus is on the client. So I saw this for all these years. And and I think, halfway into my career as I was given a leadership position, I just simply asked myself a question, you know, how did I want to be treated as an employee? Right, and I wanted to feel safe, right, I wanted to feel like I was looked after, I wanted to feel like my ideas were heard. And I simply took those principles of, instead of focusing on the client, which by the way, a lot of my positions did manage the client, especially in the in the hedge fund space. I just simply shifted my philosophies and focus my energies on my team. And for me, that was paramount. I knew that if I did that, and I formed genuine connections that I actually genuinely cared about them. That I knew that I wanted to create a happier workplace a place where when you woke up in the morning, you didn't dread coming in, you know, you actually wanted to be with your teammates.

Jeff Ma  
The, for those of us who don't work in Wall Street, or and banking, is it. I guess, all we have is this, I guess, The Wolf of Wall Street picture, we have the 90 to 100 hour work weeks or more. How much of that is true? Is that a true? Is that a close image? Or what? Paint? What is it like?

Wais Achikzad  
It is in some areas, the investment banking space, typically, those are the kinds of hours that you work, but Wall Street, there's so many misconceptions about Wall Street, I'd love to write a book about it one day. And there's there's the haves and have nots, just like in the real world, right? There's your 1%, who are your revenue generators, and then there's the rest of the 99%, or an Operations and Technology and all these other divisions and, and the and there's a completely different culture from one area and operations to the front office of the revenue generators, and how they're treated. And but all that contributes to the culture of the overall organizations. Because if you're working, if you're not in the revenue generating space, you're you feel like a second class citizen, or you're made to feel like one, that's just the reality. That's no disrespect to anyone managing any of those teams, because I was one of those people. And so that's the whole, that's where that divide, sort of is created. And it shows it shows in people's behaviors and output. And it's so to answer your question, some of that is true. Long work weeks, absolutely. Very competitive, very fierce. And, but but at the end of the day, it's just like working in any other, you know, company and whether it's technology, or it's, it's work, right, it's just work. So what do you want to work, you want to come in and you want to feel safe and satisfied with what you're doing? 

Jeff Ma  
So you know, that that that kind of cutthroat kind of mentality is something that I always associated with, with the industry? Maybe not, like you mentioned across the entire board, but it does feel like a very individualistic and very kind of every every person for themselves kind of mentality. I feel like when it comes to growing through leadership or going to leadership roles. Is it something that and you you yourself, climb the ladder quite successfully? Would you say that you are able to do that to some extent with putting your team first or is it does it have to be, you know, leaving a trail of dead bodies if you have to get behind to get to where you want to be?

Wais Achikzad  
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I'm going to be completely frank with you. It is not easy. Climbing the ladder, so to speak, to get to a leadership position. You know, just like in any walk of life, to get to a certain level, you have to make tough decisions that are going to impact people's lives. So how I tried to go about it always is, is to be transparent with my team to be authentic and genuine and but always give them give them the information that they need to so that they can help manage their own careers. So for example, if there are going through layoffs, right, if we are as a company going through layoffs, I'll give you one example. And this is something I'm sure anyone who sees this probably will never hire me just because I'm sharing the story. But that's fine. I, when I was at JP Morgan, I was told, I was told by my management, and I had a team of 25 at the time. Beautiful Team, excellent team, we got along great and productivity was great. But I was an operations and let's guess what operations is a cost center. So I was told that 80% of my staff, I was my manager called me and said, Can you come into my office, please got some information to share, sat down. And he said, why? So unfortunately, 80% of your team has to be let go, we're moving a lot of our functions to the Philippines and India within the next eight months, and if you can successfully execute, execute this, you'll have a promotion lined up and executive director level all those things. And so I asked a bunch of questions, obviously, I wanted to get as much information as I could. And I was at a crossroads. Really, I had a dilemma on my hands. And I was also told to not share that information with my staff. Until two months before that eight month period, timeline was coming coming to, you know, once it was close to the eight month timeframe. So I had to tell myself twice what, but I did argue with him or use a strong word, but I did try to try to reason and with my manager that look, isn't it better if we let our staff know, today or tomorrow, that this is happening so that they can find other work? And so that we can help them network? Right, the answer was a resounding no. Because there's still work to be done now. And we don't want to the threat of losing them. Right. And again, I went back and forth. And I went home and had to, I had a sleepless night. And I woke up in the morning. And I was resolute by being transparent with my team, against the wishes of my management. And I got them into a conference room. And called out I had a weekly team meeting. But I said guys, this is off cycle meeting just had some updates to share, and told him the truth. I was like, this is what's happening, guys, and I need you all to keep that to yourself. But what I will do, and I can promise you, what I will do is try to help everyone network and look for work and I had a vast network so and it got unfortunately, one person out of that group had went to the management the next day, and let them know that out of fear. They said is this really true? You know, so, the fact is that I was called into the management team with HR right there. And I was told that I did not follow orders. And in the end, I decided to it came such a tenuous situation, that I decided to part ways at JPMorgan, I eventually came back, but in that instance, I generally could not have to could not, you know, go with the program, so to speak. And so I lost the promotion. But what I did walk away with is, is the fact that I didn't walk away right away, it took a little time. But that that example, in that particular situation caused a lot of, you know, tension with management and myself, and I get I'm just being completely transparent, because these are the lessons I have learned and carry them forward. And, and so, but I was able to tell my team and I was and some of them successfully, were able to leave prior to that eight month period and find other other opportunities. And so for that I know and to this day, you know, I'm in touch with a lot of those people and we were able to at least help them collectively we work together to find proper places to so that they weren't laid off and it was the holiday season that eight month period and they were going to lose their jobs during the holiday season and it is that much more difficult to find work at that time. So I feel like I did what I thought was the right thing. You know, that's for everyone else to determine. But that's an example of, if you don't go with the program to answer your original question, then you will lose your promotion. Right. And so not only did I lose my promotion, but I lost the job. So it was on my own volition, though. So that's kind of an example of, you have to go with the program from everything that I've seen. And it's a very challenging dilemma. It's a very challenging situation at times where you're wrestling with yourself on on, what's the right thing to do? You know, and for me, it's how you go about it, of course, you're gonna have to lay people off 100%. I mean, there's no doubt about it, that's fine. But it's how you go about it. It's, are you transparent with your team? You know? And so that's just an example. I get it. But to answer your question, it is challenging to go up the ladder, but you know, you have to make decisions at that at the time where sometimes you're gonna have to wrestle with your own inner, you know, voice as to what the right or wrong thing to do is?

Jeff Ma  
Yes. Well, thank you for sharing that. That was incredible story. And, yeah, difficult. But I guess bringing it into more current day, you know, you've left your role you've you've left kind of the industry behind to pursue something that you believe in, can you talk a little bit about what you're doing now and what that how that decision came about?

Wais Achikzad  
Sure. Leadership has always been something that I've absolutely been fascinated about. I think these experiences that I've shared with you, I've seen upfront and close how you as a leader, impact your team, their lives, and how my life was impacted by my managers over time. And I think all these cumulative experiences over the years at the Morgan Stanley's at the JP Morgan's at the Goldman Sachs's and, and being a part of some phenomenal organizations with outstanding leaders and, and really bright people, you get a sense for the organizational dynamics and behavior. And that's something I studied very closely for the last 10 to 15 years, as soon as I was given a leadership position. And for me, I, as I progressed in my career, I would always pay attention to the team next to me, or my management, or the other divisions and kind of how they were going about their business. And I took a lot of lessons from that. And on Wall Street, I saw a lot of as the years as we came into the pandemic. Attrition was a big word on Wall Street, we're losing people in droves, especially the young people, especially the young people, obviously, the millennials, but now we're looking at Gen Z, and their entry into the industry. That's a whole other story. That's something I'm working on. And I decided just to while I was at JP Morgan, I did come back after that last story, they were kind enough to take me back. I worked on leadership curriculum, focused on an area where I thought was lacking in our industry. And that's through years and years of observations, as I just mentioned. And that is a focus on emotional intelligence, and development of emotional intelligence in our leaders self awareness. And I presented that document that I created. And I did create that document with my team, I managed a team in the business, and a business called prime brokerage. But I wanted to make sure that my team that I managed, gave me input and they're all young, most of them were really young. And so I wanted their voices heard, as I incorporated that into my program. I didn't want it to be just about what I thought I wanted to be what we all thought collectively, exactly what you've done with your book in the culture plus team. And we create we created this content, that ultimately I was able to present to Jamie Dimon through my mentor and everyone should have a mentor. My mentor had a relationship with Jamie Dimon was the CEO of JPMorgan. I was able to present to him what I thought was a very pertinent topic, in terms of like emotional intelligence and why our leaders needed that because, again, this is for years and years of observation of our industry and kind of the way we let it was void of that I can say that unequivocally confidently. Yeah, EQ is not emphasized on Wall Street. It's just not it's about the bottom line. And by any means necessary. And so I thought, especially as we're in, I did this during the pandemic, so I was that much more conscious of, you know, COVID, and people working from home and all those things, all those variables that have sort of come to the surface now. And, you know, Mr. Dimon, acknowledged it and said, thank you and put me in touch with their leadership and development team. And in the end, after working a few months with them just here in there, they didn't adopt any of that. And so I decided to eventually leave on my own and launch something that I thought given years of my experience, I could take those examples, take what I've learned, from a leadership perspective, and apply those principles on a broader scale. And, you know, working with the likes of culture plus and yourself and people who are like minded. And I think that these principles very much are needed on Wall Street. Again, they're industry agnostic, I think that the concept of emotional intelligence is that it's not a novel concept. But I think for industries to flourish, or for organizations to flourish today, more than ever, I think that that in our leaders, because you're talking about people who are put in these positions to lead, who are now you know, a little little more advanced in age, and then you have these younger generation coming in, and there's going to inevitably be that disconnect, right? So what do you need, as a leader, you need to be a little more self aware, to be conscious of someone else's feeling, and to feelings, to get to know them, to know what motivates them, to know that, too, because you don't know unless you know, that person, then their situation can change from day to day, unless you have that constant dialogue with them as a leader, then we don't know what's going on in their lives. And so they could have a bad day at work. And that could show up in your productivity. But unless you took the time to understand what was going on, then it's, it's not gonna be a good outcome and, and to allow them to be vulnerable to allow them to feel safe that, hey, I made a mistake, or, Hey, I got a problem. Can I speak to you, you know, these are things that typically did not happen on Wall Street, it just wasn't the culture. Right? And I want to, I want to bring that to I want to bring that to our industry, because I know we desperately need it. And there's so many voices out there that I've talked to for years, and, and even now that are desperately trying to speak up. But again, the culture is one where speaking up is not exactly encouraged. I'm, I trust in, in the fact that, you know, they're very bright people on the industry. And hopefully in time, we can sort of change the landscape of the way we view leadership.

Jeff Ma  
And what is your new endeavor? What is your, like, mission? What is your, your end goal?

Wais Achikzad  
My mission is to, I'm offering individual leadership coaching as well, because I truly enjoy that. And it's such a passion for that. But my mission overall and my why really is to, to take all that I've learned the 20 year plus years of experience, and and truly get my heart and soul into trying to create this change or start a movement of sorts. It doesn't mean one person can't, can't be the can initiate change, but one person can do it by himself. So I want to be part of this movement, to help start changing the way we view leadership and culture. And because I want everyone to come into work, and be happy, and not just because oh, I need a paycheck, I gotta support my family, or, like, what is your purpose? When you come into work? And for years and years and years? So the person to the left of me, the person who is right, to me, it was I just gotta get through the day. Right? I don't want people to have to go through that for the next generation. Like, I'm, you know, I've been in the industry forever. I mean, I'm looking now for the next generation and what are we leaving them, it's, it's people from my generation, that have left this culture of distrust in, you know, the what i've what I've explained earlier, I want to help change that so that the graduates of the next coming class or the analysts that are in the programs now can have a better experience than I did, or my peers did. And that is my purpose is to really bring shine a light on what we need to do, and then provide a solution for it. And I feel like I can do both.

Jeff Ma  
And we're so aligned on that right in this mission to essentially we call it just bring humanity back to the workplace. But you're you're centered specifically around your experience of Wall Street and of this industry. Why, you know, I find that daunting, I find that I'll be honest, I find that, you know, we don't have a lot of people like you speaking up the way you do in that industry, I've worked with many, many industries and different people, and you'll find, you know, a good amount of people align to this mission statement, because this is what, not only something that just makes sense to me. And it still makes sense, by the way for banking. But I'm just saying you, I don't come across many people. Why is that? Why? What's unique about you? Or why is it so hard for others to?

Wais Achikzad  
I think, yeah, that's a great question, Joe, I think because, because I've practiced what I'm preaching now. And I essentially what love as a business strategy, the concepts behind it, whenever I'm privileged enough to have been given a team to manage. I mean, I love my team, but that's my, I love them. They're like, I'm responsible for them. Right? They're not my children. But in a sense, if you want to show that, you know, if you want to have that parallel of parent, children relationship, parent child relationship, I'm tasked with taking care of them, right there, their growth, equipping them to succeed, their career path, if they have problems, I'm here for them, right. So that's what I've implemented in any team that I've managed that philosophy. And it comes from a real genuine place, because I do care about them. Because I was because I've been in that position where my manager didn't care about me. And I know what it did to me, psychologically, and how it affected my work. And as I, as I sort of continued down that path, and practicing in that manner, well, I found that production, productivity went through the roof, people are happy, people are happy to come to work. So the fact that I know that we can, in our in an industry that's not known for it, lead with love, it can be done. So I'm living proof that it can be done, where I have failed, Jeff, I failed as a leader, and I will admit it and acknowledge it, I failed to convince my peers to do the same. Right? I tried by sending that email to Jamie Dimon with with my with my deck and my ideas with my team. But I failed to do it. Right. But I don't believe that, that that's the end of it, I believe that we can still do it. And as as the new generation comes in, and new leaders come in, I believe that that's where we're going. And if we don't do it, now, we'll lose the best and the brightest from our industry. And they're already if you look at the stats, they're already gone attack and startups and fintech and all these things, the best and the brightest are not going to be going to JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs, they're gonna go to Google and Facebook and all these other nonprofits, or maybe not Facebook or Twitter, but but, um, but So my mission is to is to, to help change those perceptions on Wall Street. And, and I really believe that, you know, because I've, I've actually done it, I've seen it, I've seen it be successful, or I'm not saying I was the best manager in the world, I'm not at all, I certainly made my fair share of mistakes. But by leading with love in the way that I did, I know that I was able to have everyone show up at work every day and be the best version of themselves. Ultimately, that was my goal, I want you to be you. Just be yourself. You don't have to prove to be anything, you don't have to be anyone else. And by doing that by allowing them that safe space. You're now encouraging ideas and innovation in those things. And there's so many right now that are not have so much potential have so much potential that are that are muzzled and muted, because they're afraid to share them at the hierarchy system of Wall Street is so entrenched, you know, but I didn't believe in hierarchy. I don't care if you're a first year analyst, if you had a great idea that I'm going to put you in front of my managing director to share that idea. Didn't matter to me. But again, that's, that's a typical of what happens on Wall Street. So I just want to make that happen in any way I can, if I can contribute to that, and for them for the betterment of the next generation. And you know, so

Jeff Ma  
we have someone coming up in a role that if you picture we have somebody placed in a similar situation as you were many years back where do something that feels wrong, but get a promotion and all the personal gain versus do the right thing and potentially lose that or worse. How, how do we get more people to make the right decision? How do we get there like how do we Because right now it's not even just it's not even just Wall Street, right? Like, if you put that type of choice that dilemma in front of people. Yeah. You know, part of the reason we do what we do is that thing, many people would pick the advancement of their own career the benefits for themselves. Yeah. But But what, what, where do you think we need to start? How do we get people there?

Wais Achikzad  
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think, look, in business, there are gonna be tough decisions. Inevitably, right, you're gonna, as a leader, you're gonna have to make tough decisions that impact people's lives and their careers. It's the way you go about it. It's the way you go about it, that that makes all the difference in the world. So as long as there's transparency, and I know there's in some instances, you can only share so much information, right. But in the end, you can be transparent, and you should be transparent. And I think as long as there's that open communication, believe me, that employee who you're going to, you're going to have to tell that you're going to lay them off, they'll appreciate your honesty. And what can you do for them, you can help them look for another job, right, you can help with your network. And there's so many things you can do in the way that you go about doing something. It's your approach approaches everything. And I think those are the things we can work on. But guess what Mr. approach comes to emotional intelligence and self awareness, it all comes back down to that that's the common denominator. Right. And that's the, that's what's missing in the equation. And I'm fully confident in that. And then if we can just arm our leaders, with develop, because everyone has that in them the ability to I mean, if you're if you're void of emotional intelligence at work, guess what, you go home, and you have a wife, and you love your kids and you love your wife. Right? There's, there's love there, there's compassion, there's, why can't you apply those principles to your employees? Right, you're still gonna have to make tough decisions. And just because you love your employee doesn't mean that can't be tough love, just like you would with your child. Right, you're going to sometimes admonish, and sometimes, you know, not everyone's going to perform to their optimal levels at all times. So you have to be tough at the same time, but with tough love. And so, to answer your question, I don't know if I did, but I think transparency is key and being honest and open. Is makes all the difference in the world.

Jeff Ma  
Well said, so, you know, I, I'm excited. I think one of the things that just on paper building, I was like somebody in Wall Street's talking about love, that's like, that's crazy. But as I as I, as I've gotten to talk to you and speak to you, as well, like, I think I think we have such an opportunity to work together, like you said, and make and generate that movement, that that's needed. Because I do feel like, you know, some places just need some change. And it feels like Wall Street needs a movement, it needs a revolution, if you will, this good word. And that's, and that's, that's going to take many people doing many things, and a lot of luck and a lot of time, but I'm so excited. And so just grateful that you're in this this, you know, alongside me, and just in general, because, like I said, I've yet to meet anyone else that's that's willing to take this on. And I think that's very courageous of you. And I think it's, it's incredibly selfless of you. So thank you.

Wais Achikzad  
No, thank you, Jeff. And the work that you culture plus does and what you guys stand for. There's so many like minded people that I've come across, since I've sort of entered this arena. And there's just wonderful people out there that want really want the best for everyone and for humanity really for and, and ultimately, I think we can do it, as long as we stick together and articulate our cause and propose a, you know, a plausible solution, which, you know, clearly culture plus I believe, has, then, you know, the sky's the limit, and it just takes for our leaders to be open to change, you know, our world is changing so fast, right, the that I just, we just the 80s and 90s ways of doing business are over. Right? So the people that are leading now led in the 80s, and 90s. And that's how they got successful. But those philosophy philosophies don't fly anymore. And I say that respectfully. So we need to evolve with that. And I'm excited for the journey and end up but thanks again for what you guys do.

Jeff Ma  
Know. And thank you also for being on the show today. This conversation has been been incredible. And I know you and I off off of the show, we'll have some more conversations about how we can continue doing this. And I hope you know, it's inspirational for me to just talk to you today and hopefully inspirational for listeners as well. So thank you so much for Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, well Thanks. And thanks to the listeners as always, please, please do pleased to continue to tune in subscribe rate, you know all those good things. But also, check out our book. If you haven't yet. It's it's still there. It's still bestseller And we were very proud of it. And you know, it's the reason Wais and and myself we were connected in the first place and it's just been 

Wais Achikzad  
great Christmas present

Jeff Ma  
Christmas present for yourself or your spouse. Leave it on the desk of your boss, that's that's fine too. But yeah, we're, you know, I'm inspired not just because like you're taking on this, but it's reminding me that when we went about this journey of all of this, we also called it a movement that we needed to create. And I think, not that we've lost sight of that, but it's a good reminder that that that's that's what it's going to take. So that's what's gonna take absolutely it's a big undertaking and I think we have to be with the recharge ourselves in that in that in that in that direction and I'm recharged from talking to you and hopefully we can continue to just give each other momentum and see where it goes.

Wais Achikzad  
Absolutely. Jeff, thank you so much. 

Jeff Ma  
alright. Thank you and we'll see everybody next week. Thank you so much for tuning in.