Jeff Ma
Well, I knew this episode would be fun, but I didn't think it would be as impactful for me as it ended up being I invited Maggie McClurkin, Brand Manager of Softway and producer of this show, as well as Chelsie Atkinson, a founding member of Culture Plus, to join me in a casual conversation about what culture looks like from the perspective of middle management. The resulting conversation almost moves me to tears. So enjoy

Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. I have the giggles because this is our sixth take starting it. But I'm not restarting this one anymore. My guests are making me laugh, and this is going to be a theme. We are here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from and we of course believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I am here to have conversations that will hopefully be not too distracting as I keep being made to laugh by my two good friends here. But I'm excited to talk to our guests today. First of which you might already know, Maggie McClurkin has been on the show before and she's always on the show, you just don't always see her because she is the executive producer for this show. She's also brand manager for Softway. And we also have Chelsie Atkinson, who was a founding member of Culture Plus, who's also worked with alongside me at Softway for quite some time. And so I've had quite the good relationship. I hope. I mean, I think we do with both of you. And that's why I'm very excited to have conversation. Hello, Maggie, how are you?

Maggie McClurkin
I'm good. How are you?

Jeff Ma
Excellent. And hello, Chelsie. Welcome to the show for the first time.

Chelsie Atkinson
Hello, thank you. I'm happy to be here. I was invited previously, but I was on maternity leave and wasn't about, but to cut that short for you guys. So I'm happy I'm ready. I'm here. Thank

Jeff Ma
You are forgiven. So we always start with icebreakers for guests. So Maggie, you know this. So we'll start with you Maggie. Since you know you might be ready or but I'll keep it simple today. What's something about you that might surprise people when they hear it for the first time?

Maggie McClurkin
Well, well okay, I don't know if this is I'll just say whatever it's fine we're not sponsored by anyone or this person. Or this brand. Um, I have a lifetime ban on the lifetime blacklist from LA Fitness

Chelsie Atkinson
I need to tap into this at some point I need to hear the story. Oh my gosh.

Maggie McClurkin
set foot I can never set foot in LA Fitness again.

Jeff Ma
Is this is this the end of your answer? Or are

Maggie McClurkin
really good reasons I can't go further but I mean not really. It's not that serious but I really can't

Chelsie Atkinson
It would be cool if it was

Jeff Ma
an amazing answer Chelsie not I'm not gonna follow that but what was something that was surprised people when they hear it about you?

Unknown Speaker
I can absolutely follow that and it's just another tally on our list of why Maggie and I are made to partner for life which is I too am banned from a movie theater in Pearland in Texas.

Jeff Ma
Are these like when you say this is like from when you guys were like young and just standing or is this the more recent thing

Maggie McClurkin
this happened this year

I went okay, I was not expecting that mine was so like seventh grade.

Jeff Ma
So this is not a competition but Maggie wins. I mean yeah,

Chelsie Atkinson
yeah, I'm even further and treat now that this was this.

Jeff Ma
If you're listening send us a message leave a comment if you'd like an episode just about LA fitness situation

Maggie McClurkin
LA fitness if you're listening which I know you are listening because if you listen to our podcast every week, we do take sponsorship inquiries so

Jeff Ma
Always the executive producer. Okay, so why did I somewhat force you all to join me today in today's episode? I want to talk about I wanted first of all the other guys to go away. Mohammad get out of here. CEO out of here vice president out of here. I want to talk about what we what we always talk about but from a different lens. And I think I want to open by saying and setting and setting the stage thing what we what we work about. Talk about in Love as Business Strategy is always. So we're really very real place. We all believe it very much. But one of the core messages around behavior change, and being able to address our mindsets and building trust all the stuff, a lot of ownership is put on the leader, and rightfully so we always come in from the top and say, leaders have to want to change leaders have to shift their mindsets, leaders have to have the right behaviors to make an organization successful. So laying that foundation down. The reality is the lesser had conversation is that leaders are human as well. And therefore, it like any other human, this journey takes time, it looks different for different people. And that leaves kind of a void that organizations can be in because this is a movement that everybody's experiencing in terms of culture, changing the desire for workplaces to change. And a lot of workplaces aren't just black and white. It's not like great culture or bad culture. It's not just great CEO, bad CEO. We're finding just environments where, you know, we're all trying a lot of us are just all trying. And so I want to have that conversation kind of from a a middle management perspective. So leaders in spaces, which we all are the three of us, that are the very top. But still, I would argue like the most important kind of layer, right, where you work with everyone down to like the people who are hands on, but you also have to sometimes manage up in certain situations and deal with other types of organize, you're in everything. So today's conversation, long windedly is that we want to talk about what it's like. I mean, I've worked with both of you for a very long time, I'm very curious to hear your perspectives around, being in that middle management layer and what it's like because the leaders at the very top can always do it on their own first, and if we wait for them to be like 100% transformed, which by the way, they never will be what are we doing? Right? What can we do for our teams? What can we do? And I want to talk about that, because most of our viewers and listeners are also not CEOs. We're also just trying to do things the right way. So with this, that foundational thing laid down, Maggie, initial thoughts on that, like, how do you feel? Do you agree with what I just said? And how do you view that? ,

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah um, a lot of things came to mind as you were kind of setting that up. And I think the first thing that really comes to mind is the, the, that word like in the middle, or that phrase in the middle, feels really relevant, which might sound silly, because it's obvious, but like, what I think leaders at the top don't get that leaders in the middle do get is those people at the very bottom feel comfortable coming to us and complaining, because we're not in "charge". And we didn't make the rule, we're just asked to enforce the rule. So then we hear all the negativity we hear when things aren't working. And that can be really hard when you're tasked by your leader, to set an example and be positive or roll an initiative out correctly. That can be really hard when you're constantly hearing the blowback that the leader above you does not hear. Because, I mean, just being real, like, people don't have the courage to go to the very top and share that grievance. So that is hard. And just personally for me, can like weigh on my attitude, my mindset, and I can be swayed more easily. I feel like when I'm hearing that negativity, on a consistent basis, and some are always negative, sometimes it's positive, which is also great. But I feel like the brunt of people, the brunt of the negativity comes out the people in the middle just because it feels like you're, you're you know, reporting to the top a little bit you're you're telling someone in authority, but it's not as scary as going all the way up. And so I feel like that's, that's the hardest part and what I really was thinking about when you're talking.

Yeah, and I think tacking on to that, Maggie, like, he made the point that the middle can hear it the most, which just further shows the middle can have the most influence to me. So we have to be responsible with that, right? We have to be empathetic, but keep the strategy moving forward. Bring those realizations and insights to the lower people, what are the leaders actually going through because we do have insight of that and it is a misuse of our power, if we're also not placing that in front of them and providing empathy for a leader and empathy for those that are lower. And so I think just thinking through that kind of point of the middle manager, like you said, Jeff, they touch everybody. So to me, if you know you touch everybody and you have the power and Not only do you have the power, but you have the permission from your leaders to impact culture to try and make change. Why not? Why not make it better for people? And I think that's one of the biggest things we hear, you know, in our Seneca sessions that we host is a lot of people are just well, how do I, how am I expected to do it? If my leader isn't? Who cares? If the leader isn't like, yes, we are in full alignment that it does need to come from the top or true change will not happen in an organization. But start it out what if that leader needs some help? What if that leader is going through something that you're not aware of, and start having those conversations and start making things better for those around you in general? And I think also, if we have friends in the organization, why don't even just start with your friends, if that's how it's easy for you to get your toes wet, you know, and I don't mean, oh, I'm going to help my friend, girl, you know, we get Chick fil A free on Friday, I got an extra coupon for you. Like that's not moving the needle on your culture, you know, those types of friendly handouts? That's not what I'm even referring to at all. But just generally trying to make their work environment better for them as a human. Why not?

Jeff Ma
Yeah. So I think it's, I tread so lightly here, I get scared talking about this. Because yes, in most cases, when we talk about toxic cultures and problematic cultures, leaders are at fault, they are the oppressors, they are the ones who need to change. And so I'm very careful in trying to be clear that like, what I who I'm talking to, I guess my audience for this conversation is just to be clear, like, you know, if you have problematic leadership, or leadership that is showing all the wrong behaviors, and especially in the case of like, not showing signs of self awareness. That's one situation, I'm not talking about the situation. Sometimes you are the victim to that type of situation. And there are things you can do. But that's not who I'm really talking to, I think I'm talking to that organization that, you know, maybe your CEO has the right intent. And they just lacked that self awareness of what they're actually doing with some of their, their decisions, things like that. Maybe your CEO actually does have self awareness, but they're just not, you know, they're not getting there. You like me, again, as a human, they're on a journey. And it's, they're not there yet. They're all these other in between situations that I think people can and will find themselves in and I'm talking to those people, because I am in no way saying that like, oh, yeah, your leader can be just absolutely terrible, and just just oppressing everybody, but you still have to have a positive attitude, you still have to do No, that's not what I'm saying. But I'm curious to hear from from both of you. What I feel like, I'll give my honest thoughts. I think, as we talk about culture I see on social media see it on all this thought leadership, I get the feeling that there's this polarization happening, though, like see how I just I just kind of find that gray area of like leaders who are trying, they're not represented out there. I feel like everything out there is leaders got to change is your fault. You're the problem. And I'll speak personally, I'm not the top most leader, but as a as a, as a leader. In my position, I often will read those or see those kind of messages and feel guilty. And I'm like, Yeah, that's me. I want to get better. And I want to work. But I sometimes struggle with the thought that everyone who works with me or someone who works for me, might still be sitting there going, Yeah, you're just one of those, like, I'm getting grouped into a different category. And again, touchy for me, because I get that it is on me. For my for the people who look up to me. But also, I am not at the very top. So I get I relate to what you were saying earlier, Maggie and Chelsie, just about I hear the negative stuff too, without the consequence of going all the way to the top. Anyways, Maggie again, do you have any thoughts on like this almost like battle, like one side versus the other? Like, like, does it have to be that way?

Maggie McClurkin
No, definitely not. And I I think so I'll just talk about like my personal experience. I don't know if this is this holds true across the board. But for me personally, there's been two major things that have like, really helped me along in my personal like journey, of leadership of transformation, wherever you want to call it. The first major thing, which we talk about a lot, is just my attitude, not the attitude of my team, not the attitude of my coworker, my personal attitude and perspective on things, because I can't control anyone else's. And I have to let that go. A lot of times, it's like I cannot control. If my team wants to be negative about this thing. I can try my darndest, but I can only control how I feel about that certain thing. And it also on the flip side, if my leadership team or my team below me or who Whoever is really positive about something, I can still feel super negative about it. So what I realized is, my leader cannot have my attitude for me or change my attitude for me. Like, I have to decide that like I have to decide, not for really anyone else in the sounds a little bit selfish, but I promise it's not. But for myself, like, I am only one miserable if I have a bad attitude, yeah, it probably like annoys people on your team or your leaders or someone else. But I am only making myself miserable by coming to work being mad, being upset, being negative, like that's affecting me at the end of the day. So I, I have to really come to that realization of like, no, I need to change this around because I deserve to have a better experience at work to not just, you know, everyone else around me. So that was really transformational for me to realize. And then the second thing that has helped a ton, is feedback, which we talk about all the time on the show in the book. But and I don't mean just like giving feedback to about little things, but being okay with having super uncomfortable conversations with your leaders. And not necessarily posing them as like, Well, someone on my team said, blah, blah, blah, no, like, if you agree with what they said, Take ownership and share as your own and have that conversation as yourself and not just like, Well, I'm just the middleman like, that's kind of an excuse and kind of a shift of blame, basically, have a real conversation be like, This is frustrating. I'm a part of this team, that you're not a part of talking to your leader. This is frustrating to us as a team, let's talk about how we can make it better. Or in some, or I think Chelsie said was talking about empathy. Having letting your leaders see and showing them empathy for the people that they don't interact with every single day like you do. And then on the flip side, helping your team have empathy for the leaders that they don't interact with every day. Because like, you'll have both said, we interact with both of them. And that's honestly I feel thankful that I get to work with both sides and see both sides and hear both perspectives. So that personally again, I don't know if that's going to help for everyone. But that has been my two key things that have really helped me along in my journey. So

Chelsie Atkinson
I love that. You said it beautifully sister. Mindset attitude, how you communicate it, how you present yourself, your body language, like it all ties together. And you couldn't have said it better. So I agree, a salute. The thing I guess I would add here do is to me, you know, I really focus on the why not? Like why not start now? Why wait, you can take action now? How great would it be? If you said I'm taking the dive, I am going to help change the culture around me from above me and below me? And what if you do position yourself to help that leader take that first step? Like how great is that? You You almost automatically then somehow put yourself in a position to help mentor that leader, someone who is your higher up who is your VP? Like, build those relationships help help those people, which you know that if you're helping that above you, it's gonna naturally be helping those below you as well.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I have a question in that vein, because as Maggie was talking, as you added on, I've just been thinking about myself and my relationship with both of you specifically as well. I'm seeing that like, a lot of the hurdles that I used to face or even still face is around the balance of like, personal relationships versus like legitimate power. Right? Like, like liking someone, knowing someone trusting someone at a personal level and all things we're talking about having a vulnerable level is really important, like we've said that to, like tell Are you ran out of breath in our lungs and like, like trust relationships, vulnerability, key key key, but you can't just deny the fact that this legitimate power exists, right? I've been both of your bosses at one point in in history, and I think that that's always a dynamic no matter how close we feel or how you know, what our relationship grows to. It doesn't change the fact that that that power dynamic is in play. And so I'm really just kind of wondering like, and I'll say this because I feel like acknowledged that power we have overcome, it seems like between Maggie and myself, I don't feel that power dynamic. Very much at all. And then Chelsie, same thing over time..

Chelsie Atkinson
Jeff, you have no power over me.

Jeff Ma
I know that. I was trying to I was trying to say, lightly. But anyways, why do you think like, how do you think we were able to get here? I mean, if you agree that we're here, again, power is still in play, always. But I do feel like just yesterday, Chelsie you are giving you, you gave some feedback to me that I needed to hear. It was hard to hear. And you didn't make an event out of it, you gave it. We talked about it, you know, I still got to work through it and, you know, address it. But that was a testament to like, and Maggie was all the time. We we not in a bad way, I'm sorry, in a great way like, like, I would not be able to like move forward and grow without your help. I guarantee I would be stagnant. Both of you personally have multiple times showing me how to improve and give me the path forward. I don't think other My point is other leaders out there aren't afforded this benefit. They just they just aren't. I don't know how I do this without you guys. So I'm curious. How did we get here? On your opinion? Chelsie, I'll start with you, I guess?

Chelsie Atkinson
Well, I think part of it has to do with knowing that we have that permission, which everyone doesn't have. So I think it is extra scary to people like Maggie said like if you're reaching up in that ivory tower, and they have not given you the permission to bring the type of feedback or feelings or suggestions or anything that they may not be welcome to in that sense. It's going to be really hard to deliver and very scary to deliver. But between you and I specifically. And I think for Maggie and I as well, there's just the two of us as co workers together and friends, that permission has been granted. So it makes things a lot safer, and a little bit more comfortable, right. Because the things that we say to each other when we're having these feedback sessions are things go wrong, and you know, we need to address it because, you know, maybe feelings have been hurt, or we feel someone else was hurt, and we want to address it. And that permission has to be there, the Trust has to be there. And you just have to bring forward your honesty. I think that's really pushed our relationship for in a very big way. And it takes time, right. And it's it's gonna take time. And like any relationship, it's gonna have its ups and downs. But you do have to work at it. Like it's just it's like a relationship or like a marriage like it just because you fall in love doesn't mean you're staying in love. We have to keep it up. And we have to keep pushing each other.

Jeff Ma
But Maggie, before I jump to you really quickly, just on that, if I'm being honest, I think my entire career, I've verbally said I give permission. But if I'm being honest, I don't think I've actually I think there's elements to permission that are more than just, hey, I formally opened my door to your feedback. There are elements in play that have to be demonstrated and proven. And I'm still trying to pinpoint that. But that was important to me. So I just want to point out that I think a lot of people out there, in their own self awareness, probably consider themselves giving permission. But I think if people still aren't coming to you

Chelsie Atkinson
agrees that 1000 1,000% it, you cannot send out an email or welcome an employee the first day and say, Yo, I've got an open door policy come to me any time. Yeah, that means a lot to me. Okay, that means nada. So it is about how you bring it for the constant reminder which sure can be taxing on a leader like how many times do I have to say Yo, come to me with anything, but you do you do have to provide those reminders, because that that one mention of it on someone's first day first week, it does not matter based on your actions based on you not continuing to give that permission and remind someone that they have it. Absolutely. And that is only one part of it. Right. But I think just to answer your question, like a big part of it for me and you specifically was knowing that I did have that permission to to bring my full self and not emotions in a like, Oh, I'm coming to you crying but if I need to, I can and I can bring my full self to those conversations which you granted me the permission so it makes me feel safer.

Jeff Ma
It's very awkward to talk about me like this is Maggie sorry.

Maggie McClurkin
I think I agree Chelsie and I kind of want to flip it on its head just a little bit. What helped me specifically with Jeff and with other leaders within Softway, because I caught myself a lot of times saying like, Oh well, none other leaders ever talked to me like no one ever like, like Sorry, definitely put you on blast, but I'm just like we don't have one on ones like I haven't talked to Like we had one one on one. When I first started, I remember, and you said the exact words, if you ever need anything, just let me know.

Jeff Ma
and admit it to this like five minutes ago, I

Maggie McClurkin
don't know. But I think it's better there's redemption in the story. And so he I remember that. And then six months go by, and I'm like, I don't have a relationship with Jeff at all. Like, it got to the point where like, one stupid thing and I don't know if Jeff, you remember this, but one stupid thing you said in the group meeting really hurt my feelings? Because we didn't have that relationship to for me to be like, Oh, I Oh, I know, Jeff. Like, he didn't mean it like that. I didn't know. Like, I didn't know you didn't mean it like that. And so at that point, it kind of, I was kind of done like feeling sorry for myself was like, Well, Jeff never reaches out to me, Jeff never checks on me. And kind of was like, Well, do I reach out to Jeff, do I check on Jeff? Like, do I, like try to build a relationship with him like, why? You know, and I and that's not just with like leadership in a company. That's true with life too. Like, with friends, like, if you want to keep up with friends, you don't just wait around for them to reach out to you. We all go through different seasons of being able to reach out or not having the capacity to do that. And that's okay, like, a relationship with your boss isn't always going to be 50:50. Like, every relationship in life, but so I think what really changed my perspective was, I also have the power to be like, Hey, I put 30 minutes on your calendar just hang out, or just to get to know you. And once I started doing that, with not only Jeff but with Moh and with Chris and Frank, it made those doors that were open before just feel a lot easier to walk through. Because they weren't so far away, if that makes sense. They were much, much closer, and I had that access to be able to, and that foundation of relationship of like, I never want to be that person. That's like, the only time you see me is when I'm giving you negative feedback. Like, I want to, like, also get to know you as a human so that, I think, yeah, that's right. I'm gonna say.

Jeff Ma
I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna cry. Because literally, like, I remember. You're absolutely right. And that's something I still to this day struggle with, in terms of when I lead, am I giving enough people space and supporting people, like, I'm not succeeding in all accounts on that. But I remember our first conversation after that six month thing, and I think of it so fondly it's truly such an important moment, as insignificant as it is, like, on paper. It didn't just platform like our relationship, but it platform my awareness as well. Because, you know, a couple of meetings about nothing platformed into meetings where you gave me some harsh feedback, you gave me some stuff I needed to hear and stuff that and then you needed help. And I and and you know, like it started so many parts of our story as as co workers and friends and, and all that that that are important to me. So you to go back there now was pretty cool, I think. Yeah, I just feel kind of warm and fuzzy about it. Look at us now. Love you guys.

Maggie McClurkin
And I will tell you actually, the person who encouraged me to do this was Chelsie, because Chelsie, way back when I first started, she trained me like I worked right below Chelsie for about six months about that time period where I was frustrated that I wasn't hearing from Jeff. and I were constantly her reminders of like, Why throw one on one on his calendar and like, no, like, I don't want to do that he should do that. And she's like, alright, well, I'll talk to him. But like, I think you should still do it. And just her encouragement in her like, example that she said like that's, I think that's where I learned it. So, kudos to Chelsie.

Chelsie Atkinson
Thank you, Maggie. I forgot about that. But it sounds like something I would do.

Jeff Ma
Okay, well, I didn't intend for this conversation to become me as the upper more more leader and oppressor, but it is true. And it is. It is a reality of how we got here. And but it's been like the theme of this conversation has shifted for me personally, because I do not I guess I didn't come to this episode thinking this but I just cannot imagine where I'd be today. Without all the little bits of what make just our relationships. I mean, you Chelsie and you Maggie like what they are today. So it's not about relationship. It's like literally my development and my growth is tied to these little stories we have and these little interactions that we had that could have gone very differently. So that decision you made to come talk to me and Chelsie, you giving her that advice like those things, these tiny little butterfly effects that are so important to me. And I can't help but connect that back to, you know, leaders who don't have that. I think, I think it's one thing. Speaking from what I'm hearing and feeling right now, it's like, you have to step one always have that self awareness, recognize it, but you can only do so much without help. And in these cases, like for instance, with Maggie, like your first six months, terrible of me, but I was not self aware that I was doing that, like, to me, we still pass by in the halls or in group meetings, we had enough interactions that I thought that, you know, I was being friendly enough and all these excuses. But it was just wasn't reality. And I would not have seen that. Unless someone actually just told me, which eventually, he did write. So I just can't stress enough how I'm not trying to make it about me, I hate this. But, but it is an important lesson.

Maggie McClurkin
And just like from that, like in to go back to that kind of that middle management layer, like when people on your team are expressing to you grievances about those that are above you, you can hear it, you can hear it in their voice and the way they talk about it, they don't have a relationship with that person. And a lot of times, it's like, Well, I never hear from them, or I don't you know, the only time I see them as in a review meeting, and they're giving me harsh feedback. And I do take that time to remind them, like you have the power to put a 30 minute one on one on their calendar at any time. And they'll make time for it. Like, it's not like they're gonna blow you off, at least in our organization. I don't know about others, but it's just we talk about empathy a lot here and having empathy for others. And it's a heck of a lot easier to empathize with someone if you know a little bit about them. And you know a little bit about how they think or even what they're struggling with at the current time. Like, it goes a long way. I think so.

Chelsie Atkinson
Yes, you're tapping into one of our Seneca quotes we use what is it, Jeff, there's no one you can't love once you know their story. It took me a it took me a long time to actually believe that honestly, I sat through so many Seneca sessions. And I was like, I can think of this person that I don't like and I know their story. But in the right context, in the right mindset, even if someone at work is a jerk, right, if you know some of that story behind their life, maybe behind it upbringing, a simple one story you could hear, you can gain a little bit more empathy for them for sure. 100% doesn't even

Maggie McClurkin
mean you're like going to become that person's best friend. But maybe it just grants you a little bit more patience for them than you would have had the day before, which could go a long way.

Jeff Ma
I just feel like, again, going back to that statement about the polarization out in the world around these topics. They're I think the reality that I've seen in talking to people and seeing that very, very rarely are people like ever coming to work with just the intent of being a jerk making someone's life hard. We almost universally all come to try to do a good job, move our work for our business for at least our careers for do a good job. And no one wants to fight bicker get at each other or feel certain like none of that is ever in our intent. So it must be something relational that's in the way, right? Like if we all have the same intent, that's one of the things I can trust most about you guys like you have a bad day. I know what your intent still is. That's where the relationship comes in. And that's where if the lowest level employees in that sense, are going to have one perspective of they're going to draw their own conclusions and then paint their own pictures or stories, they're going to be upset about and they have every right. That's how it ends up working. But I'm constantly inspired by relationships in my life and things that I see that paint a picture of a workplace where that empathy you guys talked about, can be extended further and deeper and farther and wider, where we have that trust of intent for each other we have that we have that real relationship starting to build earlier and throughout the organization. I can dream right. I'm gonna dream.

Chelsie Atkinson
Dream big Honey. Yeah.

Jeff Ma
Well, I asked you guys to do it for 30 minutes. I've now taken you over by 10 minutes. So thank you so much, first of all, for this conversation. I genuinely genuinely had a really enlightening and great conversation together. And I'm happy that I got to record it because this has been a great comment. This is one I would have loved to have even privately but we got to get it off. I get it on air. So enjoy that. But thank you Maggie, for joining us. Thank you Chelsie so much for being here today.

Maggie McClurkin
Thank you for having me.

Jeff Ma
And thank you listeners as always This was amazing for me so I don't know if you got a lot out of it but if you did, let us know and and reach out. We've been hoarding some extra books that we can be giving away. So you know what if you're listening, come reach out to me on LinkedIn, you can find me. Jeff ma obviously you know him, look for me love as a business strategy as well. Come reach out to me send a connection send me a message. Tell me you heard the podcast tell me you want to book I will make this happen. So if you're listening right now, and putting that out there in the world. Yeah, check it out. So I'll stop telling you to go check out our book. I'll get you a book. Okay. Other than that, subscribe to our podcast. Tell your friends. And with that. We'll see you all next week