Listen on:
Episode 168:
168. Love as a Belief System Strategy with David Greer
David Greer is a lifelong entrepreneur who specializes in helping other entrepreneurs overcome challenges and obstacles in their lives. At the core of so much of his work is the concept of our belief systems, and how our beliefs drive our mindsets and behaviors. David breaks it down expertly for us in this episode.
Speakers
Feel the love! We aren't experts - we're practitioners. With a passion that's a mix of equal parts strategy and love, we explore the human (and fun) side of work and business every week together.
Jeff Ma
Host, Director at Softway
David Greer
Entrepreneurial Coach & Author
Transcript
Hide TranscriptDavid Greer 0:00
High performing organizations are driven by culture, whether it's intentional or not, and I'm a big advocate for making it intentional.
Jeff Ma 0:18
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff Ma and as always, I'm here to have conversations, hear stories with real people, real businesses in real life. My guest today is David J Greer, and he's an entrepreneurial author, coach and facilitator. And David is a catalyst who helps people, helps people fully live their dreams right now, and whether it's through his book, when your sales, speaking engagements or coaching. He specializes in not just giving advice, but providing concrete action items that help shift and transform businesses quickly. In addition, David specializes in working with entrepreneurs who are facing the challenges of alcoholism or addiction, and we're going to talk about that as we explore his story. Today, he's joining me from Vancouver, Canada today, where he lives with his wife, Carolee, and three children. I'd love to welcome Dave to the show. David, how are you doing?
David Greer 1:28
Thanks, Jeff, I'm doing fantastic and super excited to be here with you today.
Jeff Ma 1:34
Absolutely. I think we get a number of Canadian guests on this show. And it's not on purpose. It's just there's so much, so much good vibes happening in Canada, so much, so much progress happening in the business culture front over there.
David Greer 1:50
I'm, I'm glad we can help.
Jeff Ma 1:56
David, I want to start. I mean, today I know we're going to be talking about your story in general, I'd love to hear, I'd love to dive into it. And we don't have to, like, dive head first. I'd love to start with a broader question around you and your passion. I'd love to know what, how would you define your passion, where it lies today, in your in your phase of life, and how does it? How does it? How did you come to that passion. How did you What's the story that brought you here?
David Greer 2:26
You know, I don't think about passion all that much, but if I have a single passion, it's to inspire others to really live the life of their dreams. And it turns out, I was doing this for a lot of time in my life, and didn't really realize it, you know, I joined a young software company as the first employee, and we built it into a global powerhouse. But my former partner and I, we, our strategy was to write a new paper every year and then travel around the globe giving presentations to both management and technical audiences, create belief in this, you know, small Vancouver based software company, you're going to trust your whole business to that strategy worked really well, but I think, you know, it was us sharing our information and showing people what they thought wasn't possible. Was possible because we'd done it. And so I think we inspired a lot of people that way, and the kind of computing platform we worked on, and the kind of businesses that they run, you know, our products had really high leverage. Like, you know, we were helping a core group of IT people, but we were helping them in turn help 500 or 1000 or 1500 employees, who are then, in turn, helping like 1000s of customers. So is that an inspiration purpose? I'm not certain, but it, it's it's like to have this meaningful impact, and then, you know, I've lived somewhat larger than life, life, and done things that most people have never considered doing, like when I sold out of that business, my wife and I commissioned a sailboat in the south of France, and we took our three kids and we homed them for two years while sailing more than 5000 miles in the Mediterranean basin. Wow. And, you know, just this tiny, infinitesimal, small percentage of the population ever goes and does something like that. And I kept an online diary, and I kept writing about it all through the 2001 2000 three.com meltdown, and I came back and people said, David, I love your emails, because they were the only positive thing I heard in two years. So, so that, you know, and you know, my coaching work is to really, my number one request of clients is make intentional choice like, rather than have the universe just toss and turn, you know, turn you wherever like, bring. Conscious choice. If I can inspire one or two people to do that and to live the life they choose, you know that they want to live, I'll be really happy. I love
Jeff Ma 5:10
that. And I think I mean knowing coaching and one on one is so much of kind of your your realm of work, you know, I think I can see that really coming through and being important in your conversations to have this passion for helping others. So here we are in in a format in which you could potentially help many other people as they listen to you. Here, I wanted to talk with you today about your experience, through coaching, through your book, through all these things, but really talking about culture and workplace culture in general. And I think it's not a, you know, it's not a foreign concept here that, like, leadership, self development, growth, all these things are important. And so I really wanted to help, like, tap your brain, for as an entrepreneur, and for others who are listening, who are leaders in their space. Where do you where would you start in advising generally, when it comes to, how do you get get there? How do you achieve that dream? How do you get that get that goal? So
David Greer 6:11
you want to talk more about really making your dreams come true, or do you want to do more around the culture piece, so color and high performance? Yes,
Jeff Ma 6:20
in the realm, I guess, in the space of culture, high performance, you know, what are, what are the things that people need to be concerned with in order to achieve, to help achieve their dreams and their goals?
David Greer 6:32
Okay, so I have a path, I think, through what you're talking about, which I'll, I'll do from an entrepreneurial perspective. So, yes, I believe culture, high performing organizations, are driven by culture, whether it's intentional or not, and I'm a big advocate for making it intentional. So the first piece of that is like discovery. People often, you know, think that culture should be altruistic or just good, you know? I mean, there's lots of really high performing organizations that are filled with assholes, and they hire more assholes and but that's okay. That's like, if you're not an asshole, don't go work there, because you will be very unhappy, right? So again, it's not my place to judge, and I'm not certain I'd want a client like that, because it kind of isn't who I am, but, but it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just, it's what it is. And so I think culture is more a discovery process, and especially, I work a lot with owner founders, who've then grown their businesses to a high level of success and then stalled or flattened or had a crisis or something has happened, so they want my help. And so usually that culture is the culture and belief system of the entrepreneur who founded the company and are maybe the first two or three big leaders, which are often Friends of the entrepreneur who who grew the company to its current stage. And the reason I think culture is so so important is because culture really defines behaviors. That's, to me, what what culture does. It defines how people behave. And in my experience, like it is 1000 times easier to teach someone a skill than it is to change their behavior. Right? Changing behavior is hard, and behavior mostly comes from our family of origin, early, teachers, mentors, coaches that created a whole belief system for us, which is then drives all of our behaviors, mostly unconsciously, until you, until some you reach some point in your life, potentially, like I have, where those behaviors aren't serving you. And so now, now you have to go dig into the inside if they're serving you very well. And you know, like entrepreneurs who start to buy into culture, you know, one of the things I see is what employees really look for is in any organization, is, does the leader demonstrate, like, if a leader says they really believe in culture, is, do they live the culture that's being identified? Because if there's any mismatch, people will pick up on it right away, right So, so you can't just say one thing and do another in this instance, like you really. Have to live it.
Jeff Ma 9:35
You mentioned 1000 times harder change behaviors and beliefs. It does that mean it's is that? Is that mean it's something that we should still strive to do? Or is it easier to just surround yourself with the right people instead? Or what is the right approach with that? Then
David Greer 9:50
it's way easier. So I really coach people to hire for core values slash behaviors, first. First and skills second, which is the opposite way that most people hire. Yeah, most people say, you know, do you have, you know, you're a computer developer and you understand Perl, and you know this back end and that front end and this and that and the other thing, great. And I mean, there's obviously, for every position, there are some floor of skill set. Like you don't have time to teach them, give them a computer science degree, but so there's some floor but among the people. But before you get too deep in the skills, like you want to threshold skill test, so at least you got some you think their their potential is there, then you want to dig into the behaviors in the culture, and that's needs to be through open ended questions and or looking back. You know, if we look at something like top grading, where you go back to like, what was your first job in high school? How did you how did you work in that job? What would your boss say? But you today, they remembered. I mean, I'm 66 I don't think anyone who hired me if they're still alive, but, you know, and then we work forward through your various roles. And again, I think those behavior things are laid down very early, and again, until you get to some point of personal growth where those behaviors are hindering you and you want to make some kind of change to them, or you want to moderate them, like my core kind of, what we say in 12 step recovery, my my defects of character, like they're never going to go away, I don't think, but I've polished the sharpest edges off of them. And you know, when they show up and too strongly, I'm quick to own that and make an amend for it, and so it's not appropriate. But I mean, it's taken quite a bit of work to get to that spot,
Jeff Ma 11:54
sure, and I think in the line of work that I do, and sounds like you do as well. I mean, we're working with people who have oftentimes already been placed in a position, or put themselves in a position, where the best route is to attempt to transform in these ways, whether themselves or or their teams or their organizations. So I don't know that it's always an option to, I guess, start from scratch and surround yourselves with with people who share all these same belief systems and things like this. So is the other hand,
David Greer 12:31
I would say, like the most dangerous players, at least their senior leadership layer level, I would say, are toxic A's. So those are really like a performers, but they totally operate outside of the cultural norms. You know, they like stand, stomp on people's heads, to climb up and like, they're very hard people to let go, because they get so much done and they make such a big difference to the organization or the business, and they're the most important people we help move on,
Jeff Ma 13:02
yep, and they set the tone for everybody else. Successful. Unfortunately, yes,
David Greer 13:07
unfortunately, yeah. So, and it's tough, like, I don't want to sugarcoat this and say, you know, and in the case of entrepreneurs, sometimes it's really hard, because it is that friend who you hired, you know, early on in the business and grew the business really well. And I mean, it could be that there are talks, okay, the other one is that they just can't grow fast enough to where the business is now growing. And it's not like they won't get there, but they won't get there fast enough and and that's a really tough conversation to have. But again, as a leader, if you really want you know, if you're that's what your business is doing and where you're taking it, then you have to have that tough conversation. And in I think the hardest part of high growth businesses is finding the next level of leadership. Is growing the next level of leadership.
Jeff Ma 13:59
Have you? Have you yourself worked through belief system change and things like that that you could maybe talk about to help, kind of exemplify or inspire others around this? Sure.
David Greer 14:15
So in the intro you talk, you mentioned that you're one of the things I specialize in is helping entrepreneurs who are challenged with alcoholism or addiction. And so I want your listeners to know that I'm an alcoholic, thankfully in recovery, but you know, I was someone who was completely addicted to alcohol for many, many, many years, and was in complete denial about it, like I'd go to amazing lengths to deny that this was a problem in my life, and I was super high performing. I mean, I built a software business to be a global powerhouse, you know, raise three kids, but. I I, you know, I got to a point where I just was a hollowed out person, and fortunately, the universe put an amazing coach in my life, who I worked with for over nine years. But after we'd worked together for our first 18 months, I'd built enough trust, and we cleared off enough stuff off the table like so kind of nothing was left but the elephant in the room. And I admitted to him that I had a drinking problem, which was an understatement, but it was the first person I'd ever admitted really that I had a drinking problem. And he coached me to go to 12 step recovery, which I did, and in that process. So first of all, there was the denial piece, like I had to, I had to get to a point where I wouldn't deny it anymore, and that was a fundamental change in my belief system, like just, I can't for listeners who are struggling like to get to that point is such a milestone, it is. And if you've been there and gone through that, congratulations like that. That's really hard and hard personal growth. And then, you know, to succeed in recovery. And just, you know, it's we say, we say, it's not that hard to put the cork in the bottle. The problem is to live life on life's terms without going back with my number one tool of choice, which is alcohol, right? So that's my was my coping mechanism. So I'm sober, but life goes on. Challenges happen. Things show up. So you know now in 12 step recovery, we have these things called the 12 steps, which are our like our code, our toolkit for how we cope with life. So I mean, I did that. I did personal therapy work. Next week, my wife and I are going to celebrate 42 years together. Congrats. Thanks very much. But, you know, the first 30 were very codependent, and then, as I grew in recovery, and then we started doing relationship work, which we'd never worked with a professional, you know, relationship counselor. And we did eight years of work together with a set of four different therapists, each of who was perfect for that stage of our relationship. You know, we have grown massively, and we show up for each other very differently today, which is all required us to go back and look at our own family of origin and our belief systems and how we want to show up and and really and deep personal growth. But you know, I'll just say I can only share my experience, but for me, you know, 15 years ago, if you saw me, you know, I had a house and I had three kids and I had two cars, and look like a very successful person. And today, if you look at me, I have a house and I have my wife and I have three kids, and now I have two grandkids and two cars, and the person on the inside is completely different, completely different. And that's that personal journey that I've embarked on for myself and for those around me, right? And I mean, as you change, you have you it changes. It just it changes your relationship with everything else in life, whether other people change or not, it you are changing so your relationship to everything changes.
Jeff Ma 18:32
Yeah, absolutely. And my personal belief is that we all carry this potential to transform in your case, it was, it was this cat, there was this catalyst and this fortunate kind of crossing with a coach that helped you realize that there was this, this positive transformation opportunity. I find that a lot of the people I come across, it may not be to that extent of you know, talking about addiction and alcoholism and things like that, but there are parts of their the way they live their life, and parts of the ways that they they treat others, and just their general, you know. And again, this, maybe it's just from my perspective, but I've heard I also have stories with people where these these are opportunities for people to transform, but the hardest barrier is that step of self awareness and recognizing that there is a deeper rooted belief that's driving these things. Recognizing that is a huge, huge challenge I've seen for people, because it's invisible for the most part. It's part of who we just think we are or, yeah, it doesn't seem like something we need to
David Greer 19:43
change. And I think it often takes some kind of crisis, like a burnout, you know, really getting ill. You know, my case, the recognition of my alcoholism, i. You know, losing a loved one, which causes you to, like, suddenly, like, reexamine where your life's at. So it often takes a trigger event of some kind. Or, you know, if we go back to the entrepreneurs and core values, you know, like the entrepreneur, like, often, entrepreneurs are the single biggest thing holding back the business that they want to have, right and and so, you know, part of my work as a coach is just helping them show where their belief system or how they're holding you know, how they're showing up, you know, like they're not living the core values, or they're not interacting with people in a respectful way, or whatever it is, they're actually that they're not able to achieve what they want to achieve, because they are in their own way, and the only way to get out of their own way is to look at you know, so why do you behave that way? Why is it so important that you think you have control? Because all of us think we have way more control than I believe we do, right? And I think that's a human condition problem. I think that's true for pretty much 80% of the planet. And you know, some of my personal growth has been realizing that, you know, I maybe have 1% control over the things around me and and really it boils down to I control my response to events or things that happen to me, and I have control over the next right step that I take, and that's about it.
Jeff Ma 21:33
Is there something? Is there something you'd recommend broadly? I know a lot of your work is, you know, personalized, one on one, but is there something that you've seen from a trend perspective, that everyone can probably go right now and re examine and do a step they can all everyone can take that might yield something good?
David Greer 21:52
So my number one request of clients is to make conscious choice, and I think, I think we seriously underestimate how much we can actually make a choice. We're too we're so afraid of either what people will think of us, or we're so afraid of consequences, of saying no, like, if there's too much in your calendar, so you can't do some of this personal work. Like, the only way to solve that is you've got to say no to something in your calendar, and so make a conscious choice about what you want to say no to. And especially in the work environment, I find like I work with some I work with an individual works for one of the largest tech companies in Canada, which has somewhat of a toxic culture. And, you know, I'm in Vancouver, and the headquarters of the Canadian Division. I mean, this is a worldwide, top tech company, but the Canadian division headquarters are in Toronto. And, you know, the senior executives think nothing of having their dinner. And then at, you know, 910, o'clock at night Toronto time, sending messages to people to do work at six dinner time here in Vancouver. And part of my coaching with this individual was, say no, pop up, but say no, like and see what the consequences are. And I mean, we talked through some of the worst case consequences. I would say a lot of the times in coaching, I actually just go down, let's go down the path of the worst case. You say no and you're fired. What now? Like, will your world end? Will you, you know, like you don't have a plan B, right now, fine, but, like, it's funny how when you talk through the worst case, you realize the worst case is not quite the stuff of the nightmares you thought it was. Or
Jeff Ma 23:51
really it might reveal a lot of the belief systems you have is like, Oh, wait. Well, why do I need a job to survive? Well, I need money, right? Well, why do I need money? Like, all these things tie into such strong releases.
David Greer 24:04
Do I need to live in this big a house on this side of town, sending my kids to private school? Like, yeah, right. No. I mean, those are, those are choices, and you give good reason for all those choices? I don't want to, like, I'm, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of those choices, but those choices are leading you down a path, right? And and have consequences. And are you okay with those consequences?
Jeff Ma 24:33
Yeah, there's a there's a saying I love it says you got to choose your hard yeah, I don't know if you're Yeah. I can't stop thinking about that right now, because it seems like your advice includes this idea of everybody taking a moment to choose which hard they want to deal with,
David Greer 24:51
and for a lot of high performing peoples in senior positions saying no to certain people or. Certain situations or certain leaders, is often the hardest thing. Yeah, that that is the hard and the default is, yes, yes, I will work more. Yes, I will take on that project. And, you know, it's not a healthy behavior, like, if you're, you know, a healthy behavior is I have these five things that I'm tasked with doing right now. So which of these do I drop so I can say yes to what you're asking me for right now? Yeah, and, and if the person says, Well, you can't, you have to, I'm sorry, like, there's not enough time and and and resources to do six. There isn't really enough to do five, but I'm willing to take on the five. So if you if you're not dropping anything that I'm then my answer is, no, no, I will not do that. That's a very courageous thing oftentimes for people to do. I Yeah. I really want your listeners to know that it's easy for me to say that, and I have got much better at doing exactly what I just said, and it's hard. Yeah,
Jeff Ma 26:08
there's people sweating bullets right now just thinking, thinking about it for sure. Yes, with the time I have left, I'm curious to flip a question a little bit more around for the listeners here that you know, not the audience here is not all heavily. Entrepreneurs split pretty evenly. So we have entrepreneurs, we have leaders, and we have quite a number of individual contributors who listen to show as well. Curious for those, I guess, to help them with perspective, if, if I'm an individual contributor, or just low, you know, in my opinion, lower on a totem pole. And I'm and I'm experiencing this, and I'm aware of cultural, you know, issues, things that misaligned with kind of my beliefs, or what I believe should be, the beliefs that we all share. And I'm seeing that my leaders, I'm seeing that and around me like, am I powerless in this? Am I just the victim of this? Or is there something that you would ever advise kind of folks who may not hold all the power of change in organization to do? Is there a way they can help?
David Greer 27:14
Sure. So one is, what can you change within your circle and what, what you interact with and with that group, and how, if at all, do you want to lead that kind of behavior and change? Sometimes it's just modeling it. Sometimes it's just showing up and being different than the rest, like, you know, this individual that I coached and still work with in this big technology company. I mean, he just ended up, like, behaving differently and and a lot of people noticed, and a lot of people noticed that, like, his ripple effect was very big, nice, and it it has, has it changed the whole organization? No, as the organization's leadership say that they're moving in some new directions that sound promising. Yes, is it happening? Questionable, but there's more hope. And again, this individual was able to be much more comfortable, like he was seriously thinking of leaving the organization, but he decided he could make a bigger shift and change by being his true self within the organization, right? And again, it's a very, very brave thing they did, right? It's,
Jeff Ma 28:42
it's the, it's the courageous side of quiet quitting, I guess, the courageous alternative, yes, and
David Greer 28:48
clearly that for most of us there, there is a choice about quitting and going somewhere else. I mean, you want to think it through, and you want to try and understand the consequences. And it's not, I don't think the grass is always greener on the other side. So, you know, that's a that's a place where I really help coach people through conscious choice. Like, you know, if people are thinking of a career change, the first thing I asked them to do is is, please write down your do not list. Like, I don't want to hear what you want in your job. What I want to hear is what you absolutely will not have in a job, right? And the absolute must will not ever. And that provides so much clarity to people. And oftentimes it's like, oh, it's not as bad here as I thought. Like most of the things that might never have list are actually not here, but it's the three are really present. But what can I do about those three? Right? Or, oh yeah, all 10 on my absolutely positively must not ever have are here. I need to make a change, yeah? But then they have the list so they filter like, it's like. Go look at the the any position you're looking at. Go investigate the company, and at least as much as you can from the outside, looking in, see whether you're not list. You know how many things are on your not ever list. Then as you get in the interview process, make sure you ask questions around that like the interview process is a two way process, not a one way process, like it's it's about you getting to know them and making sure that they are a fit for you, as much as it is them interviewing you to make sure you are a fit for them. I think we lose sight of that because we cede all the control to the people who are offering the job.
Jeff Ma 30:40
Couldn't agree more, and I hope that the hope that the world shifts more than understanding as we, as we make our
David Greer 30:48
I hope so. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Jeff Ma 30:53
David, thank you so much for your time today. Before you go, I'd love if you'd share a little bit about yourself. People like to learn more, reach out to you, maybe just a quick understanding of what wind in your sales is about, so people can check that out. Sure.
David Greer 31:06
So when I started my coaching practice, I I interviewed over 45 sales and marketing leaders and entrepreneurs, because I was really sensing, you know, the the way marketing and sales happens is changing in a social media world, which was kind of the impetus to get it started. But I wanted to take and build a useful book for especially kind of owner, founders, entrepreneurs who who haven't, like, gone through multiple businesses, like after you've done three or four, you'll know most of the things in my book, but I have 10 chapters, which I call 10 strategies. In my experiences, most owner, founder entrepreneurs are super, super good at three or four. Of them are decent at another three or four and have at least a couple they've never heard of exit strategy. What's that? And a third of the book, or every chapter, ends with a case study of an entrepreneur friend of mine, who I think really is excellent at that particular aspect of business. So a third of the book is like other people's experiences, and it's, it's a little bit of theory and a lot of practice. So I explain the theory behind certain things, and then I give a lot of concrete examples that hopefully you can use to move your business forward. And you know, it's designed to be a reference. So it's like when you're stuck Go, go look up the thing you're stuck on, and go read two to five pages, and you'll have at least one idea for what to do next. So and then, because I'm an incredibly passionate lifelong sailor, every chapter starts with a sailing story from my life. That's a metaphor for the thing I'm trying to get across in the book, which is where the title comes from.
Jeff Ma 32:52
Love that David. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for joining me here today and sharing what you did. I think it's helped me. Process helped me. Think I'm ready to go practice some things myself based on what you've exposed. So thank you so much for that time that you've been generous with today.
David Greer 33:08
Thanks so much, Jeff. It's been great to be here to the listeners.
Jeff Ma 33:11
Thank you for tuning in as always. We really appreciate it, and hope you're checking out the book love as a business strategy. You're telling your friends, telling your parents, telling your pets, any of those people, are fine. Subscribe, rate the podcast. Let us know what you think, and hopefully we'll see you again here next week. Until then, you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
High performing organizations are driven by culture, whether it's intentional or not, and I'm a big advocate for making it intentional.
Jeff Ma 0:18
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff Ma and as always, I'm here to have conversations, hear stories with real people, real businesses in real life. My guest today is David J Greer, and he's an entrepreneurial author, coach and facilitator. And David is a catalyst who helps people, helps people fully live their dreams right now, and whether it's through his book, when your sales, speaking engagements or coaching. He specializes in not just giving advice, but providing concrete action items that help shift and transform businesses quickly. In addition, David specializes in working with entrepreneurs who are facing the challenges of alcoholism or addiction, and we're going to talk about that as we explore his story. Today, he's joining me from Vancouver, Canada today, where he lives with his wife, Carolee, and three children. I'd love to welcome Dave to the show. David, how are you doing?
David Greer 1:28
Thanks, Jeff, I'm doing fantastic and super excited to be here with you today.
Jeff Ma 1:34
Absolutely. I think we get a number of Canadian guests on this show. And it's not on purpose. It's just there's so much, so much good vibes happening in Canada, so much, so much progress happening in the business culture front over there.
David Greer 1:50
I'm, I'm glad we can help.
Jeff Ma 1:56
David, I want to start. I mean, today I know we're going to be talking about your story in general, I'd love to hear, I'd love to dive into it. And we don't have to, like, dive head first. I'd love to start with a broader question around you and your passion. I'd love to know what, how would you define your passion, where it lies today, in your in your phase of life, and how does it? How does it? How did you come to that passion. How did you What's the story that brought you here?
David Greer 2:26
You know, I don't think about passion all that much, but if I have a single passion, it's to inspire others to really live the life of their dreams. And it turns out, I was doing this for a lot of time in my life, and didn't really realize it, you know, I joined a young software company as the first employee, and we built it into a global powerhouse. But my former partner and I, we, our strategy was to write a new paper every year and then travel around the globe giving presentations to both management and technical audiences, create belief in this, you know, small Vancouver based software company, you're going to trust your whole business to that strategy worked really well, but I think, you know, it was us sharing our information and showing people what they thought wasn't possible. Was possible because we'd done it. And so I think we inspired a lot of people that way, and the kind of computing platform we worked on, and the kind of businesses that they run, you know, our products had really high leverage. Like, you know, we were helping a core group of IT people, but we were helping them in turn help 500 or 1000 or 1500 employees, who are then, in turn, helping like 1000s of customers. So is that an inspiration purpose? I'm not certain, but it, it's it's like to have this meaningful impact, and then, you know, I've lived somewhat larger than life, life, and done things that most people have never considered doing, like when I sold out of that business, my wife and I commissioned a sailboat in the south of France, and we took our three kids and we homed them for two years while sailing more than 5000 miles in the Mediterranean basin. Wow. And, you know, just this tiny, infinitesimal, small percentage of the population ever goes and does something like that. And I kept an online diary, and I kept writing about it all through the 2001 2000 three.com meltdown, and I came back and people said, David, I love your emails, because they were the only positive thing I heard in two years. So, so that, you know, and you know, my coaching work is to really, my number one request of clients is make intentional choice like, rather than have the universe just toss and turn, you know, turn you wherever like, bring. Conscious choice. If I can inspire one or two people to do that and to live the life they choose, you know that they want to live, I'll be really happy. I love
Jeff Ma 5:10
that. And I think I mean knowing coaching and one on one is so much of kind of your your realm of work, you know, I think I can see that really coming through and being important in your conversations to have this passion for helping others. So here we are in in a format in which you could potentially help many other people as they listen to you. Here, I wanted to talk with you today about your experience, through coaching, through your book, through all these things, but really talking about culture and workplace culture in general. And I think it's not a, you know, it's not a foreign concept here that, like, leadership, self development, growth, all these things are important. And so I really wanted to help, like, tap your brain, for as an entrepreneur, and for others who are listening, who are leaders in their space. Where do you where would you start in advising generally, when it comes to, how do you get get there? How do you achieve that dream? How do you get that get that goal? So
David Greer 6:11
you want to talk more about really making your dreams come true, or do you want to do more around the culture piece, so color and high performance? Yes,
Jeff Ma 6:20
in the realm, I guess, in the space of culture, high performance, you know, what are, what are the things that people need to be concerned with in order to achieve, to help achieve their dreams and their goals?
David Greer 6:32
Okay, so I have a path, I think, through what you're talking about, which I'll, I'll do from an entrepreneurial perspective. So, yes, I believe culture, high performing organizations, are driven by culture, whether it's intentional or not, and I'm a big advocate for making it intentional. So the first piece of that is like discovery. People often, you know, think that culture should be altruistic or just good, you know? I mean, there's lots of really high performing organizations that are filled with assholes, and they hire more assholes and but that's okay. That's like, if you're not an asshole, don't go work there, because you will be very unhappy, right? So again, it's not my place to judge, and I'm not certain I'd want a client like that, because it kind of isn't who I am, but, but it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just, it's what it is. And so I think culture is more a discovery process, and especially, I work a lot with owner founders, who've then grown their businesses to a high level of success and then stalled or flattened or had a crisis or something has happened, so they want my help. And so usually that culture is the culture and belief system of the entrepreneur who founded the company and are maybe the first two or three big leaders, which are often Friends of the entrepreneur who who grew the company to its current stage. And the reason I think culture is so so important is because culture really defines behaviors. That's, to me, what what culture does. It defines how people behave. And in my experience, like it is 1000 times easier to teach someone a skill than it is to change their behavior. Right? Changing behavior is hard, and behavior mostly comes from our family of origin, early, teachers, mentors, coaches that created a whole belief system for us, which is then drives all of our behaviors, mostly unconsciously, until you, until some you reach some point in your life, potentially, like I have, where those behaviors aren't serving you. And so now, now you have to go dig into the inside if they're serving you very well. And you know, like entrepreneurs who start to buy into culture, you know, one of the things I see is what employees really look for is in any organization, is, does the leader demonstrate, like, if a leader says they really believe in culture, is, do they live the culture that's being identified? Because if there's any mismatch, people will pick up on it right away, right So, so you can't just say one thing and do another in this instance, like you really. Have to live it.
Jeff Ma 9:35
You mentioned 1000 times harder change behaviors and beliefs. It does that mean it's is that? Is that mean it's something that we should still strive to do? Or is it easier to just surround yourself with the right people instead? Or what is the right approach with that? Then
David Greer 9:50
it's way easier. So I really coach people to hire for core values slash behaviors, first. First and skills second, which is the opposite way that most people hire. Yeah, most people say, you know, do you have, you know, you're a computer developer and you understand Perl, and you know this back end and that front end and this and that and the other thing, great. And I mean, there's obviously, for every position, there are some floor of skill set. Like you don't have time to teach them, give them a computer science degree, but so there's some floor but among the people. But before you get too deep in the skills, like you want to threshold skill test, so at least you got some you think their their potential is there, then you want to dig into the behaviors in the culture, and that's needs to be through open ended questions and or looking back. You know, if we look at something like top grading, where you go back to like, what was your first job in high school? How did you how did you work in that job? What would your boss say? But you today, they remembered. I mean, I'm 66 I don't think anyone who hired me if they're still alive, but, you know, and then we work forward through your various roles. And again, I think those behavior things are laid down very early, and again, until you get to some point of personal growth where those behaviors are hindering you and you want to make some kind of change to them, or you want to moderate them, like my core kind of, what we say in 12 step recovery, my my defects of character, like they're never going to go away, I don't think, but I've polished the sharpest edges off of them. And you know, when they show up and too strongly, I'm quick to own that and make an amend for it, and so it's not appropriate. But I mean, it's taken quite a bit of work to get to that spot,
Jeff Ma 11:54
sure, and I think in the line of work that I do, and sounds like you do as well. I mean, we're working with people who have oftentimes already been placed in a position, or put themselves in a position, where the best route is to attempt to transform in these ways, whether themselves or or their teams or their organizations. So I don't know that it's always an option to, I guess, start from scratch and surround yourselves with with people who share all these same belief systems and things like this. So is the other hand,
David Greer 12:31
I would say, like the most dangerous players, at least their senior leadership layer level, I would say, are toxic A's. So those are really like a performers, but they totally operate outside of the cultural norms. You know, they like stand, stomp on people's heads, to climb up and like, they're very hard people to let go, because they get so much done and they make such a big difference to the organization or the business, and they're the most important people we help move on,
Jeff Ma 13:02
yep, and they set the tone for everybody else. Successful. Unfortunately, yes,
David Greer 13:07
unfortunately, yeah. So, and it's tough, like, I don't want to sugarcoat this and say, you know, and in the case of entrepreneurs, sometimes it's really hard, because it is that friend who you hired, you know, early on in the business and grew the business really well. And I mean, it could be that there are talks, okay, the other one is that they just can't grow fast enough to where the business is now growing. And it's not like they won't get there, but they won't get there fast enough and and that's a really tough conversation to have. But again, as a leader, if you really want you know, if you're that's what your business is doing and where you're taking it, then you have to have that tough conversation. And in I think the hardest part of high growth businesses is finding the next level of leadership. Is growing the next level of leadership.
Jeff Ma 13:59
Have you? Have you yourself worked through belief system change and things like that that you could maybe talk about to help, kind of exemplify or inspire others around this? Sure.
David Greer 14:15
So in the intro you talk, you mentioned that you're one of the things I specialize in is helping entrepreneurs who are challenged with alcoholism or addiction. And so I want your listeners to know that I'm an alcoholic, thankfully in recovery, but you know, I was someone who was completely addicted to alcohol for many, many, many years, and was in complete denial about it, like I'd go to amazing lengths to deny that this was a problem in my life, and I was super high performing. I mean, I built a software business to be a global powerhouse, you know, raise three kids, but. I I, you know, I got to a point where I just was a hollowed out person, and fortunately, the universe put an amazing coach in my life, who I worked with for over nine years. But after we'd worked together for our first 18 months, I'd built enough trust, and we cleared off enough stuff off the table like so kind of nothing was left but the elephant in the room. And I admitted to him that I had a drinking problem, which was an understatement, but it was the first person I'd ever admitted really that I had a drinking problem. And he coached me to go to 12 step recovery, which I did, and in that process. So first of all, there was the denial piece, like I had to, I had to get to a point where I wouldn't deny it anymore, and that was a fundamental change in my belief system, like just, I can't for listeners who are struggling like to get to that point is such a milestone, it is. And if you've been there and gone through that, congratulations like that. That's really hard and hard personal growth. And then, you know, to succeed in recovery. And just, you know, it's we say, we say, it's not that hard to put the cork in the bottle. The problem is to live life on life's terms without going back with my number one tool of choice, which is alcohol, right? So that's my was my coping mechanism. So I'm sober, but life goes on. Challenges happen. Things show up. So you know now in 12 step recovery, we have these things called the 12 steps, which are our like our code, our toolkit for how we cope with life. So I mean, I did that. I did personal therapy work. Next week, my wife and I are going to celebrate 42 years together. Congrats. Thanks very much. But, you know, the first 30 were very codependent, and then, as I grew in recovery, and then we started doing relationship work, which we'd never worked with a professional, you know, relationship counselor. And we did eight years of work together with a set of four different therapists, each of who was perfect for that stage of our relationship. You know, we have grown massively, and we show up for each other very differently today, which is all required us to go back and look at our own family of origin and our belief systems and how we want to show up and and really and deep personal growth. But you know, I'll just say I can only share my experience, but for me, you know, 15 years ago, if you saw me, you know, I had a house and I had three kids and I had two cars, and look like a very successful person. And today, if you look at me, I have a house and I have my wife and I have three kids, and now I have two grandkids and two cars, and the person on the inside is completely different, completely different. And that's that personal journey that I've embarked on for myself and for those around me, right? And I mean, as you change, you have you it changes. It just it changes your relationship with everything else in life, whether other people change or not, it you are changing so your relationship to everything changes.
Jeff Ma 18:32
Yeah, absolutely. And my personal belief is that we all carry this potential to transform in your case, it was, it was this cat, there was this catalyst and this fortunate kind of crossing with a coach that helped you realize that there was this, this positive transformation opportunity. I find that a lot of the people I come across, it may not be to that extent of you know, talking about addiction and alcoholism and things like that, but there are parts of their the way they live their life, and parts of the ways that they they treat others, and just their general, you know. And again, this, maybe it's just from my perspective, but I've heard I also have stories with people where these these are opportunities for people to transform, but the hardest barrier is that step of self awareness and recognizing that there is a deeper rooted belief that's driving these things. Recognizing that is a huge, huge challenge I've seen for people, because it's invisible for the most part. It's part of who we just think we are or, yeah, it doesn't seem like something we need to
David Greer 19:43
change. And I think it often takes some kind of crisis, like a burnout, you know, really getting ill. You know, my case, the recognition of my alcoholism, i. You know, losing a loved one, which causes you to, like, suddenly, like, reexamine where your life's at. So it often takes a trigger event of some kind. Or, you know, if we go back to the entrepreneurs and core values, you know, like the entrepreneur, like, often, entrepreneurs are the single biggest thing holding back the business that they want to have, right and and so, you know, part of my work as a coach is just helping them show where their belief system or how they're holding you know, how they're showing up, you know, like they're not living the core values, or they're not interacting with people in a respectful way, or whatever it is, they're actually that they're not able to achieve what they want to achieve, because they are in their own way, and the only way to get out of their own way is to look at you know, so why do you behave that way? Why is it so important that you think you have control? Because all of us think we have way more control than I believe we do, right? And I think that's a human condition problem. I think that's true for pretty much 80% of the planet. And you know, some of my personal growth has been realizing that, you know, I maybe have 1% control over the things around me and and really it boils down to I control my response to events or things that happen to me, and I have control over the next right step that I take, and that's about it.
Jeff Ma 21:33
Is there something? Is there something you'd recommend broadly? I know a lot of your work is, you know, personalized, one on one, but is there something that you've seen from a trend perspective, that everyone can probably go right now and re examine and do a step they can all everyone can take that might yield something good?
David Greer 21:52
So my number one request of clients is to make conscious choice, and I think, I think we seriously underestimate how much we can actually make a choice. We're too we're so afraid of either what people will think of us, or we're so afraid of consequences, of saying no, like, if there's too much in your calendar, so you can't do some of this personal work. Like, the only way to solve that is you've got to say no to something in your calendar, and so make a conscious choice about what you want to say no to. And especially in the work environment, I find like I work with some I work with an individual works for one of the largest tech companies in Canada, which has somewhat of a toxic culture. And, you know, I'm in Vancouver, and the headquarters of the Canadian Division. I mean, this is a worldwide, top tech company, but the Canadian division headquarters are in Toronto. And, you know, the senior executives think nothing of having their dinner. And then at, you know, 910, o'clock at night Toronto time, sending messages to people to do work at six dinner time here in Vancouver. And part of my coaching with this individual was, say no, pop up, but say no, like and see what the consequences are. And I mean, we talked through some of the worst case consequences. I would say a lot of the times in coaching, I actually just go down, let's go down the path of the worst case. You say no and you're fired. What now? Like, will your world end? Will you, you know, like you don't have a plan B, right now, fine, but, like, it's funny how when you talk through the worst case, you realize the worst case is not quite the stuff of the nightmares you thought it was. Or
Jeff Ma 23:51
really it might reveal a lot of the belief systems you have is like, Oh, wait. Well, why do I need a job to survive? Well, I need money, right? Well, why do I need money? Like, all these things tie into such strong releases.
David Greer 24:04
Do I need to live in this big a house on this side of town, sending my kids to private school? Like, yeah, right. No. I mean, those are, those are choices, and you give good reason for all those choices? I don't want to, like, I'm, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of those choices, but those choices are leading you down a path, right? And and have consequences. And are you okay with those consequences?
Jeff Ma 24:33
Yeah, there's a there's a saying I love it says you got to choose your hard yeah, I don't know if you're Yeah. I can't stop thinking about that right now, because it seems like your advice includes this idea of everybody taking a moment to choose which hard they want to deal with,
David Greer 24:51
and for a lot of high performing peoples in senior positions saying no to certain people or. Certain situations or certain leaders, is often the hardest thing. Yeah, that that is the hard and the default is, yes, yes, I will work more. Yes, I will take on that project. And, you know, it's not a healthy behavior, like, if you're, you know, a healthy behavior is I have these five things that I'm tasked with doing right now. So which of these do I drop so I can say yes to what you're asking me for right now? Yeah, and, and if the person says, Well, you can't, you have to, I'm sorry, like, there's not enough time and and and resources to do six. There isn't really enough to do five, but I'm willing to take on the five. So if you if you're not dropping anything that I'm then my answer is, no, no, I will not do that. That's a very courageous thing oftentimes for people to do. I Yeah. I really want your listeners to know that it's easy for me to say that, and I have got much better at doing exactly what I just said, and it's hard. Yeah,
Jeff Ma 26:08
there's people sweating bullets right now just thinking, thinking about it for sure. Yes, with the time I have left, I'm curious to flip a question a little bit more around for the listeners here that you know, not the audience here is not all heavily. Entrepreneurs split pretty evenly. So we have entrepreneurs, we have leaders, and we have quite a number of individual contributors who listen to show as well. Curious for those, I guess, to help them with perspective, if, if I'm an individual contributor, or just low, you know, in my opinion, lower on a totem pole. And I'm and I'm experiencing this, and I'm aware of cultural, you know, issues, things that misaligned with kind of my beliefs, or what I believe should be, the beliefs that we all share. And I'm seeing that my leaders, I'm seeing that and around me like, am I powerless in this? Am I just the victim of this? Or is there something that you would ever advise kind of folks who may not hold all the power of change in organization to do? Is there a way they can help?
David Greer 27:14
Sure. So one is, what can you change within your circle and what, what you interact with and with that group, and how, if at all, do you want to lead that kind of behavior and change? Sometimes it's just modeling it. Sometimes it's just showing up and being different than the rest, like, you know, this individual that I coached and still work with in this big technology company. I mean, he just ended up, like, behaving differently and and a lot of people noticed, and a lot of people noticed that, like, his ripple effect was very big, nice, and it it has, has it changed the whole organization? No, as the organization's leadership say that they're moving in some new directions that sound promising. Yes, is it happening? Questionable, but there's more hope. And again, this individual was able to be much more comfortable, like he was seriously thinking of leaving the organization, but he decided he could make a bigger shift and change by being his true self within the organization, right? And again, it's a very, very brave thing they did, right? It's,
Jeff Ma 28:42
it's the, it's the courageous side of quiet quitting, I guess, the courageous alternative, yes, and
David Greer 28:48
clearly that for most of us there, there is a choice about quitting and going somewhere else. I mean, you want to think it through, and you want to try and understand the consequences. And it's not, I don't think the grass is always greener on the other side. So, you know, that's a that's a place where I really help coach people through conscious choice. Like, you know, if people are thinking of a career change, the first thing I asked them to do is is, please write down your do not list. Like, I don't want to hear what you want in your job. What I want to hear is what you absolutely will not have in a job, right? And the absolute must will not ever. And that provides so much clarity to people. And oftentimes it's like, oh, it's not as bad here as I thought. Like most of the things that might never have list are actually not here, but it's the three are really present. But what can I do about those three? Right? Or, oh yeah, all 10 on my absolutely positively must not ever have are here. I need to make a change, yeah? But then they have the list so they filter like, it's like. Go look at the the any position you're looking at. Go investigate the company, and at least as much as you can from the outside, looking in, see whether you're not list. You know how many things are on your not ever list. Then as you get in the interview process, make sure you ask questions around that like the interview process is a two way process, not a one way process, like it's it's about you getting to know them and making sure that they are a fit for you, as much as it is them interviewing you to make sure you are a fit for them. I think we lose sight of that because we cede all the control to the people who are offering the job.
Jeff Ma 30:40
Couldn't agree more, and I hope that the hope that the world shifts more than understanding as we, as we make our
David Greer 30:48
I hope so. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Jeff Ma 30:53
David, thank you so much for your time today. Before you go, I'd love if you'd share a little bit about yourself. People like to learn more, reach out to you, maybe just a quick understanding of what wind in your sales is about, so people can check that out. Sure.
David Greer 31:06
So when I started my coaching practice, I I interviewed over 45 sales and marketing leaders and entrepreneurs, because I was really sensing, you know, the the way marketing and sales happens is changing in a social media world, which was kind of the impetus to get it started. But I wanted to take and build a useful book for especially kind of owner, founders, entrepreneurs who who haven't, like, gone through multiple businesses, like after you've done three or four, you'll know most of the things in my book, but I have 10 chapters, which I call 10 strategies. In my experiences, most owner, founder entrepreneurs are super, super good at three or four. Of them are decent at another three or four and have at least a couple they've never heard of exit strategy. What's that? And a third of the book, or every chapter, ends with a case study of an entrepreneur friend of mine, who I think really is excellent at that particular aspect of business. So a third of the book is like other people's experiences, and it's, it's a little bit of theory and a lot of practice. So I explain the theory behind certain things, and then I give a lot of concrete examples that hopefully you can use to move your business forward. And you know, it's designed to be a reference. So it's like when you're stuck Go, go look up the thing you're stuck on, and go read two to five pages, and you'll have at least one idea for what to do next. So and then, because I'm an incredibly passionate lifelong sailor, every chapter starts with a sailing story from my life. That's a metaphor for the thing I'm trying to get across in the book, which is where the title comes from.
Jeff Ma 32:52
Love that David. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for joining me here today and sharing what you did. I think it's helped me. Process helped me. Think I'm ready to go practice some things myself based on what you've exposed. So thank you so much for that time that you've been generous with today.
David Greer 33:08
Thanks so much, Jeff. It's been great to be here to the listeners.
Jeff Ma 33:11
Thank you for tuning in as always. We really appreciate it, and hope you're checking out the book love as a business strategy. You're telling your friends, telling your parents, telling your pets, any of those people, are fine. Subscribe, rate the podcast. Let us know what you think, and hopefully we'll see you again here next week. Until then, you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai